SIS Archives -- September 2001

Name: Clas
@ work

Date: Sunday, September 30, 19101 at 23:35:49
Comments:

Dragon - it was YOU! I thought that was a very funny post. I suspected mr Becker for a while. Funny stuff.

America, bless God,

C

Hey, that was me playing GOD the other day or so. I didn't mean to upset or insult anyone by that, just to inject some humour into some subjects that seemed to have every third person or so on this GB discombobulated.

StAl -- the post page says Sign in, wont (instead of won't). There are other mistakes but I'm trying not to be anal rententive.

StAl -- I have GB entries from:

Sunday Sept 16 at 01:50:13 to:
Tues Sept 25 at 21:53:45

email me if this is of any help

Chartreuse would look good on you, St Al.

Hey, I think I'll dye my hair chartreuse.

GROWN PEOPLE WHOSE EMOTIONAL AND/OR SOCIAL GROWTH HAS STALLED IN ANY OF THE ABOVE AGE GROUPS, SAY FOR
INSTANCE, THE PERSON WHO POSTED THAT DRIVEL, IS WORSE THAN ANY COMBINATION OF THE ABOVE.

Yes, and if you focussed your energy on taking care of THEM instead of your own freaking DNA you would notice you are one of them yourself.

*CHIRP CHIRP CHIRP*

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz

Babies - that is probably the most astute statement ever made on this guestbook! Please post your phone number!

Babies - that is probably the most astute statement ever made on this guestbook!

Babies - that is probably the most astute statement ever made on this guestbook!

Q: How many Ferengi does it take to change a lightbulb?
1: None of your business, huu-mahn !!!

2: Depends. How much?

3: Two: one to change it, and the other to sell the old bulb as an antique.

4: Two: one to change it and one to sell the old one as new

5: None: they'll just sell the whole lamp to some young Starfleet Ensign.

6: Just one, but he'll charge you double for it.

7: Ferengi Never change!!

8: For the right price, as many as you want.

9: None...they steal it and sell it for profit

10: Two. one to steal a new one, the other to go sell the broken one.

You start as pulsing colors
You start as an unclear signal
But if I lay back and relax, the images start to come through
0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0...
You have a feel that I couldn't imagine
Straight from another world
I never hoped that you'd meet me halfway

Images form on the matrix, I reach out my hands to you
Images form and you're reaching back
My virtual lover
You make me feel not so lonely any more

And when I'm away I think of you in radio waves and T.V. signals
And when I start to hold you close
0 1 1 0 0 1 1...
You're straight at the heart of my buried dreams
Oh my Medusa, your eyes captured me
Caught by a feel that I couldn't imagine
Straight from another world

Images form on the matrix, I reach out my hands to you
Images form and you're reaching back
My virtual lover
You make me feel not so lonely any more

You were an incubus nightmare too
You were a demon I made love to
You were my dread, and you were my fantasy
Lost forever to you
I'm lost forever to you
You make me feel not so lonely anymore

Monks of Doom
Forgery 1993

with l-u-v...

"BABIES ARE HORRIBLE."
"CHILDREN ARE WORSE."
"TEENAGERS MAKE CHILDREN LOOK FUN."

GROWN PEOPLE WHOSE EMOTIONAL AND/OR SOCIAL GROWTH HAS STALLED IN ANY OF THE ABOVE AGE GROUPS, SAY FOR INSTANCE, THE PERSON WHO POSTED THAT DRIVEL, IS WORSE THAN ANY COMBINATION OF THE ABOVE.

Gonna try and cure this fucked up throat....see you all in a week. D

ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN!!
WHAT WILL REALLY HAPPEN IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN?

1) YOU ARE GOING TO GET FAT. You are not going to grow a cute basketball-shaped belly that will disappear as soon as you pop out the rugrat. You are going to pork out like Rosie O'Donnell if she was locked in a BJ's Wholesale Club for a month with a Gold Card. See those hips? They are going to become a shelf you could serve dinner on. Take a look at your boobs. Now visualize them being deflated like beach balls with a leak, until they are hanging at your waist, which is something you will no longer have. See your stomach? It is going to look like an accordion-pleated, cottage-cheese stuffed goat bladder. Your baby's daddy is going to tell you a lot of lies about how you still look beautiful while he is spending lunch hour at the Motel 6 with Candie from the office. And don't think for a minute that a ten-minute walk around the block with one of those fancy-schmancy running strollers will give you your old body back. Your metabolism has changed forever and even if you lose the weight, you will have the skin of a 200 pound woman hanging on a 120 pound body.

2) YOUR SEX LIFE WILL END. Having fun trying to get pregnant? Sure you are. It is the most sex your husband has ever had, after all. Enjoy it, because your sex life is about to end permanently. Every parent I know agrees that this is true. You will never be spontaneous again, because the first time you try, Junior will be squeaking, "Mommy, why are you kissing Daddy's pee- pee?" The old joke about headlights and a snake in the grass does not seem so funny now, does it? And that is the best case scenario.

The only serious urge left for you will be the urge to lumber to the kitchen for another Ho-Ho. If you do attempt to resume having sex, you will quickly find that your skin was not the only thing stretched out by pregnancy and labor. Just imagine poking your pinky finger in and out of a Dixie Cup if you want to visualize what post-pregnancy sex is like. Luckily for the father of your children, there are a lot of women like myself who only want sex from a man. I am sure one of us will find him.

3) YOU WILL NEVER HAVE MONEY AGAIN. Unless you are in Bill Gate's tax bracket, having a child will bankrupt you. Parenthood is the most expensive and least rewarding hobby known to man. If I buy an old Mercedes and spend $10,000 fixing it up to mint condition, at the end I have a beautiful, classic car. If I have a baby and spend every cent I make feeding it, clothing it, paying its medical bills and buying it every Beanie Baby ever made, at the end I have a teenager who hates my guts and everything I stand for (but does, however, want me to keep paying his bills).

Most amusing is the parental myth that a child will support you financially in your old age. By the time you reach your so-called "golden years," your kids will be shipping you off to a nursing home staffed by ex-convicts itching to get at your money and few precious mementos. Most of middle-aged adults are still hitting up their retired parents for money, and most of the parents are so stupid, they are still giving it. Why don't they just lie on their kids' porches with DOORMAT painted on their chests?

4) YOU DO NOT HAVE A BABY, IT HAS YOU. Your freedom is gone... forever. Do you like to go to movies? Bars? Concerts? Well, forget all of it. You are now chained to your house. Forget vacations - there are very few places you can take a baby (and a lot of people like me willing to rip your moronic head off if you bring a baby to my peaceful, serene vacation spot). Forget leaving it with a babysitter - your chances of finding one who will not trash your house and host the Midwest Hell's Angels Annual Convention the second your car has turned the corner are minimal at best. Not to mention that the same family which applauded you for choosing to breed in the first place will not raise a hand to help you once the anklebiter has arrived. The same goes for those folks at your church who convinced you that you were bound for a fiery afterlife if you did not start popping out the next generation of god-fearing Christians. You are alone...you and the most disgusting, repugnant, filthy creature on earth - your baby.

5) BABIES ARE HORRIBLE. Stop watching those damn diaper commercials! Do you think those are real babies? You will notice the actual sounds of real babies have been omitted. Instead there is a pleasing announcer's voice or background music playing. Real babies shriek their fucking heads off 24/7, with the volume level highest around 3 A.M, and it is a sound that could shatter glass. It is easily the most annoying sound on earth, and there is no way to stop it. Nor do you see a diaper that is actually being used in those commercials. Baby shit might be the most repulsive smelling substance on the planet. As if the normal variety was not bad enough, babies constantly have diarrhea. They are also very fond of puking on their handlers. They do not eat food; they spit it and later, throw it. They squirt urine at you when you bathe them. No person in their right mind would adopt a pet that had the habits of the average baby. We would be gassing them in shelters by the thousands, which is not such a bad idea when you think about it.

6) CHILDREN ARE WORSE. Once a baby becomes a child, it becomes even worse than it was as a baby. Once it can move, it can and will break things. The more valuable the items are, the greater the chance it will smash them to smithereens the second your back is turned. Whatever you tell it to do, it will do the opposite. It will crayon on your walls, cram candy between the seats of your car and set the dog's tail on fire. It will microwave the goldfish just to see what happens, Mommy. It will run through the white-carpeted living room with muddy boots, smash the china cabinet with a baseball and skateboard into the neighbor's Lexus.

Then it will go to school and you will have the privilege of attending PTA meetings that are every bit as exciting as watching campaign finance hearings on C-SPAN and sitting through conferences with some touchy-feely guidance counselor who says little Johnny is flunking math because you yelled at him once when he shot an arrow at the cat.

Every time you take it out in public, there is a good chance it will throw a hissy fit. If you try to take it to a nice restaurant or cultural event, you will be regarded stonily by dozens of adults with that "don't you dare sit next to me" look on their face. Give up and get used to saying, "Yes, I would like fries with that. Oh, and super-size it."

Forget all adult activities in general. You are going to be spending the best years of your life at Chuck E Cheese, watching a giant rat sing to you and having nerf balls bounced off your head.

7) TEENAGERS MAKE CHILDREN LOOK FUN. Ah, those teenage years. If you are too old to remember the misery you put your parents through at this point, let me recap it for you. Teenagers hate their parents. They do anything they can to offend their parents and anyone else with taste. They paint their faces white and dress up like vampires. They pierce holes all over their body. They experiment with every drug in the book and wrap your car around telephone poles and mailboxes. They dye their hair chartreuse. They do not want to work, but they do not want to go to school either. What they mostly want to do is steal cars with their friends and have sex whenever possible, usually with the person who will most offend their parents and leading to the very real possibility that you will end up with - you guessed it - another baby to take care of, thus starting the entire process all over again.

If you still want to have a baby, go ahead. But could you move to another country before you do it? I'm sick and tired of sitting at the booth next to you.

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

Now that we have put the anono-babies to sleep ...

!! ATTENTION !! ATTENTION !! ATTENTION !!

Los Angeles Dan-Fest (potential - OK?)

The Steely Fan Band plays at the Manhattan Beach Fall Festival -

Please join us on Sunday, October 7,2001 at the Old Town Fair in Manhattan Beach, Ca. The Address is 1901 Valley Drive at Live Oak Park in the city of Manhattan Beach. Showtime is 2:00pm.

Angel - if the weather next Sunday is anything like today's wonderful sunny day, it will be a great outing bring the Devil and the protege.

W1P - American Airlines, the move, and the LA DAN FEST. I hope you can make it. When is Which One's Pink? playing next. I'm there.

Last night, the Doctor Wu band played at 14 Below in Santa Monica. Our mutual friend W.W. worked sound for the band, so the Wu-ers sounded really good. The fat slob club-supplied sound man was sent packing. He probably found a schmorgasborg somewhere ...

At the start of the first set, Tony, the band's lead singer dedicated the night's performance to Gary, their trumpet player who lost his life driving back from Nebraska to Los Angeles: "Gary's playing celestial horns right now ..."

To all a peaceful Sunday.

God Bless America

Steveedan (MFM for the SFB)

"An occasional post,
from someone like Dr. Mu is fine, but this/these people are doing it anonymously. You can't answer to that."

Hey jonny (I got your number) right here -

Anonymouse on the attack again? Game over. Baby's play time is over too. Now we yank you off the floor, wipe your face clean, plug a bottle in your mouth, throw you into your crib, lock it shut, and turn off the baby monitor. Have a good night's sleep, cranky jonny.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program ...

Steveedan

Apple vs. Corporate Treadmill

The anon who wrote on "Sunday, September 30, 19101 at 01:16:06" on Fiona Apple...well put. Better than I could have expressed it.I'd rather listen to an angry tortured poet expressing complex human emotion than the sterile and often shallow offerings from the corporate treadmill.

As far as how she treats her fans...
I think that this is a part of who she is. It comes with the territory.

-Paige

Clas: Oh yeah. For several years now, to be exact. There is a great spot that runs on TV here, about the Philharmonic and Essa Pekka.
z/x: Well, I think you finally got it. Enjoy Making Aja.
Funny stuff on the Babylon Sisters extravaganza. Especially love the lead singer asking you what it was about. Tell him it has religious significance. :-)
I was sorry to hear that things have gotten so bad in NY that Roger says they won't be recording in October. But then again, I remember them saying they usually do 6 week things. Six weeks on and six weeks off. So this may not be deviating from their schedule. It just means more to Roger, to get that break. Looking less and less like a summer 2002 tour to me. We will be lucky to get a 2003 tour, at this rate.
Blaise: Everything has been said? I don't think so. A lot has been said, but not everything, by a long shot.
St. Al: I really think that if the person or persons who keep posting article after article continue, you should revisit your non editing stand. What is going on here, is your Steely Dan people are getting upset. Without us to weigh in, the board becomes someones personal political views. An occasional post, from someone like Dr. Mu is fine, but this/these people are doing it anonymously. You can't answer to that. My take.

Mu ~ Agreed...the new Ben Folds album is SOLID!

And while nudity, other positions practicing sex than the missionary posiotion, and teaching kids evolution are illegal, in USA...

...am I sitting here watching the Icebears walking the streets of Stockholm and I must ask -

Angel - really? You've heard about Esa Pekka? I think I have it in the back of my head; isn't he working in Los Angeles?

C

Now let me get this straight... ruthless people attack from nowhere abusing the means at hand and using shady I.D to bully and harm unsuspecting citizens and there's no way to immediately retaliate effectively because you're unsure about the exact source of the attacks... hmm... there's no escaping this, is there?

October off?
I say, let's have a link Oktoberfest myself then, low profile stuff.
Btw, it's football time in NY so I'll take the Giants and the Jets (?!) at home this week. Too early for the odds on Russian tanks vs the Taliban forces.

received this in e-mail today and thought I'd pass it along:

Subject: Islamic and nudity

"The President has asked that we unite for a common cause." Since the hard line Islamic people cannot stand nudity, and consider it
a sin to see a naked woman that is not their wife, tonight at 7:00, all women should run out of their house naked to help weed out the terrorists. The United States appreciates your efforts, and applauds you. God bless America.

Hey what a mess. Last I saw was God's post. Then this.

Oh well,

God Bless Me, America, the other part of Canada and Gina,

C

Teen chanteuses seem to be all the rage today, but as songs like "Oops, I did it again" fill the airwaves, I am struck by how far the quality
of songs has sunk since Fionna Apple's Tidal debuted several years ago. Though the same age as singers such as Britany Spears and
Christina Aguilera when her cd was first released, the music contains a much more mature and complex mixture of adult insight and
youthful naivte then is currently available with today's teen music scene. Unlike many teen artists today, I consider Fionna a true musician.
She wrote and played the piano on all the songs on the album and she sings with incredible emotion and maturity far beyond her eighteen
years.

Though it has been several years since I first purchased the album, I still consider it to be one of my best purchases and favorite among my
collection. Every song is strong and poignant and I play the cd straight through everytime I listen to it. Her songs display a wide variety
ranging from the flat out angry "Sleep to Dream" to the delicate "Never is a Promise." Other highlights include the seductive "Slow like
Honey" and my personal favorites "Shadowboxer" and "Criminal". Both of which display Fionna's pure raw emotion and voice. "Shadowboxer" is my single favorite. It's dark, jazzy and totally elegant.

Hey, why does the Italian Navy use glass bottom boats?

A. To see the old Italian Navy!

HAHAHAHAHA!

No cards or letters please. I'm half Italian-American and yes I am more than aware that Afghanistan is landlocked - that's part of the point as in "Who cares if the Italians don't support us fully?"

The noose is around the Taliban's neck tonight. Russians, Special Services, Oliver's Army. The boys are motivated and we'll have Steely Dan back in the studio again in no time...

IN 1995, Bill Clinton opened the White House Office for Women's Initiatives and Outreach. The WIO, as it was non-famously known, was pretty much a symbolic shop with a handful of staffers whose main purpose seems to have been to identify women as a special interest group in the Clintonian scheme of things. That made feminists happy.

During that same year, of course, Mr. Clinton was almost simultaneously initiating some women's outreach of his own in his private White House office with a 21-year-old intern named Monica Lewinsky. That seems to have made feminists happy, too--or at least happy to remain silent.

And even as Bill Clinton was revealed to have been a serial sexual harasser who had groped and propositioned a career-long kickline of luckless females (including some employees), while failing to refute a credible charge of rape along the way, feminists remained happy--or at least happy to remain silent. Sisterhood, schmisterhood. What was feminist principle next to political power? They were a special interest group in the Clintonian scheme of things and that made them happy.

No more. Now that Bill Clinton is gone and George W. Bush has coolly and quietly shuttered the more official of the two Clinton outreach offices (having repainted and redecorated the one known as the Oval Office), feminists are in what you might call snit.

"If [Mr. Bush] doesn't want there to be polarization, wants to get out of gridlock and head-knocking, this is a strange way to go about it," huffed Patricia Ireland, president of the National Organization for Women, to the Washington Post. Audrey Haynes, former WIO director, sounded her alarm to the Boston Globe: "Bush's decision to close the office concerns me,"--as Mr. Clinton's predatory ways with women, apparently, never did. Martha Burk, self-described "chair" of the National Council of Women's Organization, is also verging on palpitations, particularly when it comes to the--get this--the future of sexual harassment complaints in the Bush administration.

Given the shameful failure of avowed feminists to voice any such "concerns" (or even cluck) over the vivid, detailed harassment and intimidation charges made against Bill Clinton by women ranging from Gennifer Flowers to Paula Jones to Kathleen Willey to Juanita Broaddrick, you've got to wonder whether Ms. Burk is more concerned about how such charges might be pursued in the future, or simply whether there will be any such charges in the future to lend a cockeyed kind of sexual-harassment-parity to the Bush White House--which would really make feminists happy.

Of course, there are other ways to try to cover up the years of silent complicity. Having had nothing to say for a single Jane Doe, before, during or after Mr. Clinton's impeachment, feminists now, finally, seem to be finding their voices. And what are they saying? Writing in the Los Angeles Times, Elaine Showalter, Princeton professor and author of "Inventing Herself: Claiming a Feminist Intellectual Heritage," has decided it is now time to invent Monica Lewinsky, along with Sarah Ferguson, "two long-standing targets of ridicule and scorn, whose humiliations have launched a thousand quips ... about fat and sex" as "feminist icons of the year."

Now, there's something to admire. "Both have had scandalous failed relationships with men in positions of power. Both have been spokeswomen for diet centers," she writes. "It's empowering and inspiring to see this much-mocked duo speak up, strike back and convert mistakes into lessons, instead of hiding away in shame or going into a nunnery." Feel that surge of victimhood? Strange that Ms. Showalter doesn't see that whatever success this "much-mocked duo" enjoys has nothing to do with feminism, but everything to do with the potency of notoriety in our culture. Leaving aside Sarah Ferguson--who just might, incidentally, quibble over equating her celebrated, if doomed, marriage to a prince, which resulted in two children, with Ms. Lewinsky's furtive and adulterous interludes with the former president, which resulted in a hat pin--the apotheosis of Ms. Lewinsky as "feminist icon" comes across as a self-serving effort to salve the feminist conscience, to turn Ms. Lewinsky's outrageous victimization, which feminists did nothing to avenge, into a weird kind of virtue.

Sounds like a matter worth further study by the White House Office for Women's Initiatives and Outreach--that is, if George W. Bush hadn't just shut the thing down. Then again, who really needs a special-interest office to "reach out" to women with "initiatives," whatever they are, especially when the White House--from counselor Karen Hughes, the highest-ranking female White House staffer in history, to National Security advisor Condoleeza Rice, to cabinet secretaries Christie Todd Whitman and Gayle Norton, to Counsel of Economic Advisor member Diana Furchtgott-Roth, to Office of Personnel Management director Kay Coles James--happens to be filled with them?

Sources also said the Pentagon is drawing
up plans for a possible humanitarian
airdrop of food and medical supplies in
Afghanistan in an effort to win the "hearts
and minds" of the Afghan people.

AT least they had enough sense to condemn the attack. At least they understand that it's a bad thing that happened, that it was wrong. And here, at least, they're able to discern who the injured party is. This may sound elementary, but take nothing for granted. They've been confused about simpler things.

The touching photographs of people in other countries reacting to the American catastrophe betray the fear of god they must have acquired for their own hides upon seeing America so vulnerable. The way in which the attack on the U.S. was felt around the world indicates that other countries understand the meaning of America and why we're here; they are not indifferent to our presence on the globe. Which would imply that, generally speaking, America is good; America does the right thing.

But rewind to the week just before the disaster: There was an eight-day UN "racism conference" that crowned a growing anti-Americanism which, in addition to trying to bankrupt the U.S. through bizarre schemes like reparations and the Kyoto Treaty, saw us get kicked off of at least two international commissions. So could it be that the other countries do in fact know better? That perhaps the motives for their claims on us are disingenuous? That they stomp their feet protesting their virtuous intentions and our evil ones, all the while knowing that Dad's right?

If so, it's a shame that it took all this for the truth to come out. Maybe now they will also admit that Israel has been serving as body armor, absorbing most of the terrorist aggression that has the rest of us as its ultimate targets. Perhaps the international community will finally let Israel do what it needs to do, to save its self and, ultimately, help the world do the same.

Unless, of course, the point is that they don't want Israel to save itself. In which case the world should stop beating around the Hanukkah bush, and quit having the Arabs do its bidding-just start mixing the poisoned Kool-Aid now; it would be far more efficient than these drawn out, ongoing conferences of condemnation. Why do they feel they even need excuses like equating Zionism with racism? They should be more honest like Hitler.

Meanwhile, other countries are telling us not to retaliate for the September 11th attack without consulting other countries, getting consent and building coalitions-and still other countries are advising us to not retaliate at all so as to not anger the terrorist gods.

As both an American and a Jew-and therefore twice a racist as far as the UN is concerned-I feel unencumbered to speak freely.

So once Israel is destroyed (the UN having airlifted any Jews of color to safety), and America loses the rest of its skylines, the coast will be cleared for Arabs to re-enslave Africans and for Africans to re-enslave each other, and for the Asian and Eastern European slave trades to continue unabated.

Given this grim outlook-and given the European Union's self-destructive and counterproductive tendencies-we must ask ourselves now: Do we really need to heed the advice and demands of other countries? Indeed, is there even any need for other countries to exist? (I'm not saying destroy them; I'm just pointing out their irrelevance.)

The only reason people even visit other countries is for the landscapes and architecture, and most of that is already here. Just look at Las Vegas: Hotel-casinos styled after exotic places from all over the world, with names like Venetian, Monte Carlo, Mandalay Bay, Sahara, Rio and Barbary Coast. There's also one called Excalibur, where Camelot is alive and kicking. Even the Egyptian pyramids are there-as is Paris, with the Eiffel tower bursting through the buffet. (New York is there too, so the French can have their Statue of Liberty back, because we already have another one in Vegas.) Basically, anything other countries have, Vegas built. If Vegas didn't think of it, it must not be that important.

After all, these are countries who every time we have to execute a high-profile criminal-even a terrorist-criticize our human rights. (Our human rights record is so bad, people in other countries die just thinking about coming here.) But people do get executed in other countries-just not the criminals. Meanwhile, accolades for most tolerant nation usually go to some Scandinavian country. (How many off-white people do you see running around Sweden?) Then they get on us for our medical system-where an illegal alien gets treated in the time it takes other countries to put a citizen on a waiting list. So why should the opinions of other countries even matter? Why should we care what they think-about anything? Especially those freeloaders in the UN. (I realize their buildings are technically not on US soil, so we can't exactly kick them out, but couldn't we erect a very tall black wall around those 18 acres so as to at least spoil their view-which is the main reason they've entrenched themselves here anyway.)

It's time as well to put an end to that Nobel committee-also run by other countries. I mean, Arafat gets a prize but Bill Clinton doesn't? I suppose they would have given him one except that, hard as he tried, Israel is still standing. (Clinton reportedly berated Arafat, in the midst of the weekly Jerusalem bombings that were occurring before September 11th, for spoiling his chances at the Prize. What might he have said? "Oh sure: Now you cooperate!" ) Boy, if they ever try to give me one of those things, I'll protest: "But I didn't kill anybody!"

Meanwhile, NATO members are already backing out of their creed "an attack on one is an attack on all," with Italy refusing to send its troops for any possible U.S. retaliation and Norway and Germany declining participation in any direct military NATO action.

Apparently, NATO's a tough guy when it comes to defending a non-member state (heck, a non-state) by ganging up on a nation trying to contain a civil war within its borders, as it did in 1999. But when it comes to the only real threat facing the world (not to mention a member state), it gets cold feet.

Granted, as with the boy who cried wolf, NATO may not be eager to jump into another US-led coalition just two years after the Kosovo false alarm that became a disaster. But they should be able to distinguish between an American president fabricating a crisis, and one trying to solve one.

So what is their thinking? They've acknowledged that ultimately September 11th is not only America's problem, so at least they have an inkling that they could be next. Could it be that much of Europe is pulling a France: "Don't alienate terrorists; they could be our future masters." In other words, rather than go out on a limb and risk some casualties by helping America now, they're opting for a slow death later-from which the Americans will have to save them again.

A cop in a movie once said that nobody likes the policeman-until they need him. And then he's everybody's daddy. So it is with the U.S.

America's detractors complain that the U.S. is impervious not only to Arab rights
but also to Arab suffering. If the Palestinians are Exhibit A, the Iraqis are Exhibit
B. While most Arabs detest Saddam for his own brand of brutality and arrogance,
they don't understand why the U.S. continues to insist, 10 years after the Iraqis
were forced out of Kuwait, on worldwide sanctions that are devastating the Iraqi
people. According to the U.N., some 5,000 Iraqi children die every month of
malnutrition and disease because of the sanctions.

"Would we tolerate this kind of boycott, the starving of Czechs, for example?"
asks A. Kevin Reinhart, professor of religion at Dartmouth. "No. We've done
some specific things that are perceived as reflecting either an indifference to or a
hostility to Muslims." Islamic radicals keep a list of what they consider our casual
cruelty, although their definition of who is inflicting the pain sometimes includes
all of Christendom. They list the U.S. sanctions against Syria, Libya, Iran and
Sudan--all Muslim countries (and all, not coincidentally, considered by the State
Department to be sponsors of terrorism). They list the U.S. missile strikes in
1998 on a bin Laden camp in Afghanistan and a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan
(Washington originally claimed the plant was making chemical weapons but has
quietly backed off the charge). They believe Western powers tolerated for too
long--from 1992 until the NATO bombings in 1995--the ethnic cleansing by
Christian Serbs of Bosnian Muslims and the later killings by Serbs of ethnic
Albanian Muslims in Kosovo. Another grievance is the fact that the U.S. has done
little to stop Russia's savage war against separatist Muslims in Chechnya because
it considers the conflict an internal matter for Moscow. To Americans, all these
matters are proof that it is a messy world out there. To many Muslims, it looks
like a conspiracy against their fellow believers.

Underlying all these laments is a deep resentment that the Arab world is not the
geopolitical player it feels entitled to be. The wound is aggravated by a historical
memory of grandeur, of Islam's expansion from Arabia in the 7th century to the
conquest of the Levant, northern Africa and much of Europe, culminating in a
final rebuff at the gates of Vienna 10 centuries later. The question many Arabs
ask the U.S. and the West in general, says Professor Jean Leca of the Institute of
Political Science in Paris, is, "Why are you leaning so heavily on us when we
already had a civilization while you were still living in caves?"

The brutality of Christendom's efforts to conquer the Holy Land from the
Muslims in the Crusades of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries is not forgotten in
the Middle East (making President Bush's early use of the word crusade to
describe America's antiterror effort an unfortunate choice). An even greater sore is
the sense that, in the centuries since, so much dignity has been lost, and to an
inferior people. In Islamic belief, Muhammad is God's last prophet; he built upon
the revelations of Moses and Jesus to propound a superior, perfect faith. But the
world that faith created was broken apart: after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire
in World War I, the colonial powers of France and Britain carved the Middle East
into arbitrarily drawn mandates and states governed by handpicked local leaders.
"Many Arabs and Muslims feel they had 10 centuries of great cultural
achievement that ended with European colonialism," says John Esposito, director
of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University.
"Now they feel impotent. The West, they feel, looks at them as backward and is
only interested in their oil. Their sense of self-worth and identity is wounded."

Colonialism and the advance of Western modernity have nurtured the modern
version of Islamic fundamentalism: if Islam is perfect and its kingdom is in
retreat, it must be that its practitioners have strayed from the fundamentals of the
faith. This notion gained increasing currency after 1979, when a popular uprising
overthrew the corrupt, Westernizing, U.S.-backed Shah of Iran and paved the way
for the Ayatullah Khomeini to launch an Islamic revolution in Iran and beyond.
Khomeini called Muslims to violence to conquer "the land of the infidel."

It's a powerful message to many Arabs who otherwise see a future bereft of pride.
"Islam Is the Solution" is the slogan of the Islamic movement, and to many it
seems a better bet than the Arab nationalism that has brought them poverty,
corrupt governments or both. Even if the U.S. succeeds in routing bin Laden and
his network, the message will continue to resonate, especially given new
resentments kicked up by any U.S. military action.

On the other hand, it is the triumphalist religious convictions of bin Laden that
make him and his followers so dangerous. "This is not violence in the service of
some practical program," says Steven Simon, a former member of the National
Security Council who is writing a book on religiously inspired terrorism. "It is
killing infidels in the service of Allah. To a secular person, it's crazy. How can
that be an end in itself? The facts speak for themselves: there is one objective
here, to kill an enormous number of people and humiliate the Satanic power.
There is no claim of responsibility because there is only one audience, and that is
God." With a God they perceive to be admiringly urging them on, bin Laden's
associates have no self-restraint. They are limited only by their capabilities, which
the U.S. has now decided it has no choice but to destroy.

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,560772,00.html

Devastating attacks on bases controlled by Osama bin Laden are set to be launched in the next 48 hours as part of a tightly focused military operation approved by US President George Bush and backed by Britain, multiple press reports will claim on Sunday... Developing...
PAPERS: US AND BRITAIN TO STRIKE TERROR CAMPS 'WITHIN DAYS'
RUSSIAN TANKS TARGET TALIBAN: Russian tanks are poised tonight to roll into Afghanistan as President Bush warned that war would be waged 'wherever terrorists hide, run or plan'...
WE'LL BOMB POPPY FIELDS: Poppy fields which supply the Taliban's multi-billion-pound drugs trade are to be a key target of military strikes in Afghanistan, according to a Sunday report...
Afghan rebels have promised to begin an all-out war against the Taliban within two days - with the support of American air strikes, the SUNDAY MAIL in England will report...

skeeeveedan wrote: "Then what has this guest book become? These days there is so little posted here about music (which is why I come here to read and post) that the entertainment value or escapist fun that attracted me here in the first place has become very sparce."

1. don't come to the GB to write about music anymore. 90% of the slop you write is self-hyping your Dan cover band anyway. it's gotten really really old and quite annoying.

2. escapist fun??! Escapist fun????! you come here for that?? get a friggin life buddie

3. the entertainment value you mention comes from those stupid posts of yours, analyzing the GB and wearing your heart on your sleeve which you do quite well around here.

got it?

:0)

Second was Me and Mrs. Jones.

Horse With No Name is the first single I ever bought.

I hope that this has not been mentioned already...

I was pulling out some old CDs and found "History"...a greatest hits album rom America. The first two tracks came and went...Hourse With No Name and I Need You. (Remember when "Horse With No Name" came out...many of us thought that it was Niel Young)

Anyway..."Sandman" was the third track. With all that has been going on nationally, I couldn't help relating it to the September 11th events.

SANDMAN

AinÕt it foggy outside
All the planes have been grounded
AinÕt the fire inside?
LetÕs all go stand around it

Funny IÕve been there
And youÕve been here
We ainÕt had no time to drink that beer

ÔCause I understand
YouÕve been running from the man
That goes by the name of the Sandman
He flies the sky
Like an eagle in the eye of a
Hurricane thatÕs abandoned

AinÕt the years gone by fast
I suppose you have missed them
Oh, I almost forgot to ask
Did you hear of my enlistment?

I understand
YouÕve been running from the man
That goes by the name of the Sandman
He flies the sky
Like an eagle in the eye of a
Hurricane thatÕs abandoned

All righty now. What I was trying to say is that this pussification is inevitable. No act of will will curtail it. In fact, precisely the whole effortfulness of effort will accelerate it -- effort being what it is these days (I mean since Socrates at least).

Reasonableness has always only been fascistic. The rhetoric of equality is so strident (read fanatic) exactly because we have precious few actual MECHANISMS FOR publically acknowledging and diffusing status differences (no royalty, no castes, heck, barely even a Kennedy anymore). Quite the contrary: Everything is geared for individual "expression" (read status) to flourish. Everything we do here is geared to enhance the reality of competition, even as the gestures toward egalitarianism proliferate. Pussification is a SYMPTOM, not a result.

The Swedes and Japanese, for example, two nations renowned for their "conformity," make funny jokes about themselves as being conformist. Our jokes about conformity aren't so funny: Lester was amusing in American Beauty, but he's also dead -- ugly dead.

Reason -- ultimately, nothing but a testosterone-fleecing virus -- promotes security through appeal, whether tacit or explicit, to principles like the Law of the Excluded Middle and the Golden Rule. But in promoting "security" it does not eradicate irrationality -- the INcommensurable -- the vaunted, "difference" in brief ;-)

Those kids may not be playing tag anytime soon, but rest assured (or NOT!) that a monstous videogame version will be out tomorrow -- as soon as we can get "Twin Tower Rubble Ringolevio" off the shelves. Then next Christmas (ha!) it will be, "How the Grinch Psychologically Abused Rudolph."

Whether men are men, or women are men, until there are only gods, there will always be men -- oh and Super Duper (yes, dupe-her) Mario too.

I forgot to mention - Fred Jones worked for a newspaper - I thought of his un-named postion as perhaps an illustrator or cartoonist...

Dr. Mu, that was beautiful.

Was it in the BURP, or was the BURP someone else? I kinda liked the idea of that BURP being the intro to the tag story. Which btw is a real nice one. Be sure to copy and paste before it gets lost in the maze of mysterious post vanishing acts!

really nice *fill*

Blaise: That is the only new Dan news lately. Sad and understandable. Patience...

Send in Larry Carlton and the Special Forces...

In the Meantine...

Buy Ben Folds Rockin' the Suburbs. After 5 listens it just keeps getting better and better. A crystalline dichotomy between the rest of the album and the title track: "This is your brain. This is your brain on N'Sync." The title track is a wicked and acerbic and subversive slam, a Spinal Tap tradition (where Ben Folds integrates the worst of modern pop cleverly) for the Badkstreet Boys of the World, with left-handed jabs at 80s pop icons told from the perspective of the young, flawed, no-talent protagonist. Funny as hell. If the title track lays out the bleak state of today's pop, the rest of this opus demonstrates what pop CAN be if one has real talent and gives a rat's ass about the music. Ironically, Ben Folds released the title track as the first single - he's a sick pup. The song is being misunderstood, although in a much different way, as was Randy Newman's Short People 13 years ago.

Ben Folds plays all instruments (piano, various keyboards/synth, drums, percussion, bass, guitar, strings) with the exception of the cello on Fred Jones, Part 2 and extra guitar on the title track. Damn, he's tight for a one-man band - tighter than BB5. in part, he's careful not to stretch himself too far on the drums, laying down some good grooves and really nice when appropriate. His style as always incorporated rock, jazz, ragtime, classical with bursts of Joe Jackson or Billy Joel or Todd Rundgren sticking out, but his first solo album takes a more integrated and cohesive approach - now people will compare future artists to Ben Folds. The album is not as daring as Reihold Meissner, but more cohesive - though at times it sounds like a more polished version of the first 2 BB5 albums.

As for Mr. Folds songwriting it continues to grow and develop to the point where most of the songs now show the genius first demonstrated on Boxing and My Philosophy from the first album. Potential fulfilled.

The story lines as well as the melodies are interesting and quirky, dark scenes under soaring melodies. Loss and downhiill slide of human relationships and their most valuable possessions: their minds. The tunes, lyrics, and arrangements fit together to create 11 paintings of beauty and one track of whack. For example, the story the lyrics stand is revealed better when in the context of the performances than on the lyric shhet. Nice little arrangment touches thoughout as well. It's a very human album where love and hate and confusion intermingle (ex. Still Fighting It).

The album starts off strong with the hook filled Annie Waits, Zak and Sara and Still Fighting It followed by the solid power pop of Gone. But the heart of the album is it's strenght: introspective, sad, ironic, and pure genius:

Fred Jones Part 2 - the sad unceremonius departure of a loyal employee. The lyrics are a bit open as throughout the album - but I think of a bitter over-the-hill illustrator or animator replaced by young geeks drawing on computers.

Ascent of Stan - 60s revolutionary turned CEO

Losing Lisa - Ben's version of Cringemaker

Carrying Cathy - the sad story about lost soul and those who are torn between guilt and frustration

Not the Same - another super power pop tune

Rockin' the Suburbs - see above

Then more pure genius:

Fired - funny and pure pop heaven

The Luckiest - an absolutely beautiful and poignant love song. This accomplishment from an anrtistic standpoint may be the most difficult to appreciate: a love song that's gorgeous, but not maudlin... and Not your Lionel Ritchie.

No Ben, anyone who buys this one and understands is the luckiest...

I agree with St. Al, as someone who only visits the GB on weekends, when I visit the otterhound and folks, reading it like that is pretty confusing.
The widow of an old friend of mine was best pals with Fiona Apple's mom and I remember her telling me a few years ago that FA hated the music business and wanted to quit as soon as possible. I've never heard her music, but I saw a picture of her once and as steviedan said, she's got that emaciated, depressed, drugged look down pretty well and a part of my anatomy found it pretty attractive.
Hearing the rejected solos of "Peg" is just too tempting and I've gotta get my hands on MOA. It still strikes me as pretty cheesy to feature them playing versions of the songs from the LP in 1999 on what is supposed to be a documentary on the Making of Aja, though.
I finally tracked down the effeminate, Puerto Rican, Jehovah's Witness, high school student DF vocal clone, and marched him over to the piano where I checked his range against DF's on Babylon Sissies.
Sure enough, the EPRJWDFVC could hit every damn note, but with a little too much vibrato.
He asked me (referring to BS)" Is this operetta Mr.____?
"Er, no, not quite Chris."
Is this a religious song Mr. ____?"
Er, no, not really Chris."
Well, what type of song is it Mr.___?
"I guess you could call it fusion Chris, kinda like a blend betwixt jazz and rock and/or roll."
"Oh (a little dejectedly)."
My next mission is to track down the white people-hating African-American girl gospel singer for the chorus.
I may have this big band play it on my weekly big band gig in Brooklyn, but I don't think it would work that well for the ancient grandchick singer with the band, so I may write it up for altissimo range trombone if I find the time.

I reckon that duck hunters are the only hope for what used to be this country. First, we'll catch all the school principal-ladies who want to neuter boy kids, and we'll make'm disk-shaped. Maybe we can squash them into a special skeet-mold and fill in the empty parts with quick-hardening epoxy. Technology can do wonders these days.
Then we'll take the duck hunters to a really forlorn swamp, and put the principal ladies into a great gynormous skeet-chucker, and yell, "Pul-l-l-llllllll!

Ker-blaaam!

Then we'll put piranha in the swamp to eat what's left.

It's getting worse. I read in The Capital of Annapolis, Maryland, home of the Naval Academy, that the principaless of West Annapolis Elementary has banned tag on the playground. Yep, tag: You're it. It's for safety. Tag is dangerous. She is going to Protect Our Children.

The principaless in question, Joan Brisco, described the horror of tag.

"They would start up, and inevitably it got too rough. The reason we stopped tag was because we didn't want them getting hurt."

Well, I guess. I can imagine that the emergency rooms of Annapolis have done land-office trade in broken and bleeding children, victims of tag. Probably the halls rattle with the tippy-tap of peg legs. No doubt the children's studies suffer because of missing limbs. That's how tag usually is. When I played tag as a kid, we always had the shock-trauma unit on full alert.

If fact, tag is a leading cause of death in children, ranking just behind meteor strikes.

"Rough" means boys.

Now, why do these ladies have their innards in an uproar over tag? Because they are ladies. Usually when I see that some terrible danger has been ended, as for example dodgeball, or a kid of six has been expelled for drawing a picture of a soldier, a teacheress will be behind it. Occasionally it's a New Age man, apparently a transsexual who got stuck in mid passage.

We have feminized the schools. Worse, the teachers don't much like boys.

There is a totalitarian strain in the female psyche. It isn't evil, at least not in intention. Quite the oppposite -- in intention. Women as a sex want to impose security, stability, and conventionality, at all costs, on everything. They want a tyranny of the safe and comfortable.

For which there is a good reason. Historically, mothers have been women. Their instincts are to keep children alive, which is difficult, especially with boys. Boys favor enthusiasm over judgement. Before they are big enough, they want to climb things, crawl into things, and play with things that bite.

They don't understand about coral snakes. Mommy does. A boy of seven is quite sure it's a good idea to climb a utility pole and hang by his toes from the high-tension lines. His mother is sure it isn't. That's why he survives to manhood.

The trick to civilization is channeling male horsepower into useful directions. Women are good at this. When a man wants to put a city to the sword, or throw his boss from a high roof, she restrains him. "Why don't we nuke China next week, honey? Or you could fiddle with the whazzamajig on your Harley instead."

When the female drive for security ceases to be a useful brake on male energy, and becomes instead the dominant principle of existence, the effect is stifling. That is what we have. A guy principal, unless gelded, will let girls be girls and boys be boys. A gal principal wants them both to be girls. A man will not try to force girls to play football. A woman will try to force boys to stop playing it.

Because what is instinctive seems reasonable, few women have the foggiest idea what makes men tick. (Or, God knows, vice versa.) Some do. Some women scuba dive, jump out of airplanes, shoot competitively. The average teacheress doesn't. She can't imagine why boys like roughhousing, or hard-played basketball, or guns. When she says tag is too rough, she means that it is too rough for her.

And with an intolerance peculiar to the sex, she believes that anything she can't understand must be reformed. I am reminded of that flotsam of wisdom, worn now by much passage over the Internet: When a man marries, he believes that the woman won't change, and she does; she believes that he will change, and he doesn't.

However, says the story, the school will allow tag in PE, "if their teacher chooses to lead a group game." Here is another facet of our rewireour children: a distaste for things individual.

Now, liberals and conservatives usually amount to twin halves of a national lobotomy, each cleaving passionately to its chosen lunacies, but there are real differences between the two. The left loves groups. Note that it's easy to get the political left to hold a demonstration, for anything at all, and difficult to get conservatives to demonstrate, for anything at all.

So tag is all right in a group, where it can be supervised, and numbingly safe, and controlled, and impart Appropriate Values. Here is what is really wanted: Control, control, control. Don't let kids play whatever the hell they want to, and be kids. No. We must have a group activity. Don't let them play Cowboys and Indians. We must control how they think about gender and aboriginals. No dodgeball: It's competitive, and we must control such an antisocial drive. Forget tag: We must controls such violence. The schools now seem to be branch offices of North Korea.

And finally the story mentions the school's "no-touching" policy, and the county's rules on sexual harassment. In grade school. Always it is there: The twisted prissy Puritanism, obsessed by the fear of sex, yet determined to discover salaciousness everywhere. I think of the spinster afraid that there might be a man hiding under her bed, and equally afraid that there might not be. A profound anxiety underlies the fear of almost everything: sex, childhood games, winning and losing, physical contact, everything.

How can one not feel utter contempt for these frightened, hostile parsnips of mediocrity?

There is some solace in that boys are not required to wear training bras. Wait a few weeks. But you'll have to excuse me now. I'm working on a skeet mold.

*BURP!*

Sad to read about Roger Nichols and his sentiments regarding work and the situation in NY. good for you, Bad_Sneakers to shout out in an uplifting way :-) there are all kinds of barricades to take, thoughts to ponder and moments to endure and survive. what's most important in life, what's to cherish and what's to hold on to?

Mission of Awareness #1
you anons are stupendous in your assessment of things.
i am really looking forward to be meeting you in chat soon.
i can hardly wait. and should some of you be impatient too, here's my e-dress so you won't have to pollute this Steely Dan Guest Book any further. perhaps we can discuss whether i am pseudo-pacifist or not, we can even talk about Faeces & friends, whatever you like! but i must warn you, i am not so experienced in badmouthing people, talk behind their backs and be a coward.
subordinate females, no wonder you fear a feminist basher, you're all virgins to the essence of feminism aren't you?
and what about the male anons, spouting junk into the lukewarm lap of this cyberwomb de l'aspersion ...
am i serious? no ofcourse not. the funny part is YOU are for REAL, your posts are no figments of imagination. maybe it should be scary or sad even. just THINK about what it is you do. all that negative energy ...

strange photographs and jokes are circling the internet, i have no idea where to put a fine line if there is one.

apparently 5 americans (2 afghans with american nationalities) have been arrested ... a special task force ... this might be just what is needed to tip the fragile scale over and i really really hope it won't.

Banyan Tree All In Favor For Spiritual Nature Bow,
G.

Mark wrote: Stevee... What do you think of Carlton's solo album "Sleepwalk"?? -- I haven't heard it. I will check it out.

Now for a completely different subject --

I have been reading what has been posted here since Sept. 11, and had the displeasure of reading what has been lost off of the guest book.

I have noticed a pattern that is such manipulative game playing that so many decent-minded folks have fallen prey to:

A post is presented here. An anony-mouse disagrees with or is bored with the post. He/she/it submits a flaming post. Then the game begins. Either the original poster or someone taking that person's side posts to defend the original post. The anon-emouse continues to hurl molotov-posts and this continues for days.

Then when cooler heads prevail, the original poster or someone taking that person's side apologizes or recants in the hope that peace and courteousness might return to the guest book.

Clearly the anony-moose(s) is(are) in control. This is their game, this is their goal, and those of us who continue to respond to their compost posts are simply allowing their game to continue.

I don't know why it took me so long to see this fact.

This morning, I saw Blaise's post about how everything that could possibly have been discussed regarding Steely Dan has already been posted here (something, by the way I disagree with - courteously) and then some anon(ignora)mous posted a scud-post demanding that Blaise stop posting.

So I thought to myself ... now wait a moment ... if Blaise and all of the folks who want to post about Steely Dan stop placing posts here, this will leave behind only those who like to try to impress everyone with their political opinions and the annoyingly long pastes of articles about religion, or the bombings or whatever. It also leaves behind those who are anoneemeese flamers.

Then what has this guest book become? These days there is so little posted here about music (which is why I come here to read and post) that the entertainment value or escapist fun that attracted me here in the first place has become very sparce.

When I first started posting here last March or April (I can't remember) people sent me private e-mails advising me to ignore the nasty posterchildren and just post what I wanted. I atracted negative attention because I chose a handle so close to one of the guest book veterans, Steviedan, whom I asked for and received permission to continue with my chosen handle.

There was more balance then. Now this place is completely out of whack. I now perceive these anonyflamers as spoiled attention-junky babies who basically need to have a "time-out" administered by their Mommies and Daddies. A good spanking and some mouths washed out with soap would also be prescribed.

Instead the good folks here tolerate these child-ish anonyfreaks and try to talk sense to them. Here's my advice:

Treat them like the cranky 2-year-olds that they behave like. Yank them off the floor, insert a baby bottle of warmed milk in their mouths, put them in their cribs, zip up and lock the crib canopy so that they cannot get out, turn down the baby monitor, ...

and get back to your normal lives.

Your faithful Steveedan

a new found friend from yesterday at the old Anderson Mill. Plenty of her brothers and sisters there along with the Mama but she was the only one that wasn't shy.

http://users.sitestar.net/~jtalbott/Jim&Kitty4.jpg

it's a beautiful weekend here in the south land. purrfect weather!

Is there a reason why whoever is reposting the lost passages of the GB could not e-mail them directly to me? Reposting them directly to the GB renders it almost unreadable.

Yes, go chat and stay there. It becomes you.

chat anyone?????

Who the fuck is Face anyway? and why should we care?

And your point is?

Face never said anything directly to Gina, only made a reference to something they were told Gina did and wanted to check it out for themselves. Gina showed the flipside to that pseudo-pacifist self she touts by making a snide personal attack on Face, or did you choose to ignore that? Or are you too enamoured of Gina to see her gross shortcomings?

Mirror, mirror...

check out that image staring back at you, does it have two faces?

Hey Liverlips- Since their is nothing left to talk about concerning Steely Dan why don't you just get the fuck out of here! Oh, and take Gina with you!

Just a short message for Rodger Nicholls

We, being studio types here in Scotland, look to you for inspiration every day - you have helped shape all the recordings I have done for the last 20 years - I realise this is a tragic time for the people of NYC but the spirit of America will prevail - Stay strong man and draw on the support of all your colleagues round the world who need your important work to continue

Kind regards - Bad S

More fresh SD news from last Thursday:

"I am in NY now working.
I took 2 weeks off and worked in Woodstock.

It is very sad here and hard to work. At night leaving the studio you can look down toward the south and see the glow and the smoke. When the breeze is blowing from the south, the city fills with the smell of the smoke still rising from the rubble.

It is hard to do anything. I will be going home next week, and we are going to take off October."

Roger

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002658.html

There is even a Lost & Found Tree now?

Thank you Lars, it happens so there was talk about the Fireman in the Blue Book. John Beasley will be in my neighbourhood next month, so i'll just ask some Q's then myself me thinks. Children's music, eh? They're an appreciative audience to begin with, unlike whining adults who might get ms Barbra Streisand to add a new verse to her "People"? And George Wadenius has been mentioned many times already in a variety of conversations about all sorts.
They sure travel wide circles. Will check it out.

Oh well Blaise, i guess you could be right about everything being chewed over & over already. Still, don't we suffer memory lapses and these volatile equations tempting the vituperative inclined to pollute and debilitate? Some buy new clothes and new shoes, i borrow and develop attachment to new words :-)
Ain't life also about cycles, even Joni sings of re-occurring dreams. Listening to Bob Dylan NOW is not the same as it was like years ago. There's often something new to be discovered, our minds and ways of perception change, don't they?
I miss Robin, RubyBaby, Aja, Mr. LaPage, Altamira and numerous others here who had nice things to say and add, like views on life in general or some music worth while listening or an apt mind to debate for others to sit back, lurk and enjoy!

Gary Katz was involved with a group called Groove Collective a few years back, i was at a friend who had some CD's. And it's also interesting to learn about Roger Nichols and the engineering, that's half if not 75% of the ultimate result.

Me the last to rule against non-Dan-topics. But if people have musical tastes in common, there's often a lot more and as St.Al pointed out way way back, also a lot of differences interesting to learn about. But NOT the abusive language and anything related. The coffee-grinder moulding nail-polishers showing off fake manners & plate-golden teeth and without any real interest in tangentially Dannered items and topics. If even so in the spirit of their chords, eloquently moving transgressive & nonviolent under the vulcano brewing sidelines and unexpected cycles of re-occurring events.

Banyan Trees There's Only Decaf But No GB Decay Bow,
G.

Oh and KD was here, dressed up in Queen lyrics. Nice touch.

SD news:

The 17th Annual Technical Excellence & Creativity Awards
will be held on December 1, 2001, at the New York Marriott Marquis hotel.

Ok, thanks.

Duncan - If you have the archives from the 14th to the 18th, attach it to an EMAIL to StAl. I'm sure he'll be glad.

stevie - You must have written something you shouldn't have waaaaaaay down there. Yes you did. Yes you did.

People, don't blame Clas for the passions he draws out of others. Not his fault if he has obsessive-compulsive followers. And what is there to talk about the Dan that's not already in the archives? Challenging question, huh? We must have covered every song through every angle possible, thoroughly screened every player that came along over the years and expressed every theory on future SD doings. There is no news to speak of and if there was it would likely get priority. The Blue Book appears to present new Dan threads but a veteran knows better. These things were talked about here before for the most part.
And there's nothing wrong with treating a non-Dan topic, especially if it's of the magnitude of the 11th's events.
The thing I don't like myself and it's personal, is the reproduction of lenghty articles in their integrity when they could be simply linked and dressed up with original comments.
But to each his/her own, you know.

Here's my archival contribution from memory. It's been awhile now but it still applies... go figure.

bin Laden to the tune of Chain Lightning:

Towers burned down in thunderous blast
Get with it, we'll bake his ass
Don't bother to understand
Don't question our little plan
Be part of the brotherhood
We'll get bin Laden
And feel soooooo good

Bush backers and Tony Blair
All of NATO, as if you cared
Through the sea and from the air
No trouble, we'll find his lair
We're bombing his neighborhood
We'll hit bin Laden
It's understood

timg

Thanks for your effort. At least it's a partial record of the missing material.

FUCK FACE: Nice way to fuck with Steely Dan's server bills (where ally this cut and paste bullshit ends up).

Or, a "fun" (I'm hoping it's fun to you, you schmuck) to take St. Al away from his family for a few hours to clean up the mess you just made.

I have
fri 14th 00:25:46 to
tues 18th 22:45

Then
wed26th 14:24:58 to
friday 28th ''God Testing Testing''

Duncan

TERRORISTS STRIKE GUESTBOOK !!!!

they checked in on a hostile post with allah and they didn't check out, totally obliterating a section. people, we must unite with st al to restore the gb. i didn't even post much during that time but there was some er... historic commentary by others that's worth fighting for ! (?) (!) (?)

how many banyan trees must fall ? it's up to US (nOT u.s.). it's an incidente INTERNATIONALE.

hey if i were you, let george, i'd listen to fiona and make up my own damn mind. when i first heard her album (and i heard it alot under the auspices of a young employee who mainly wanted to crush her i think) i thought it was INTERESTING, texturally speaking. but upon seeing a couple of tv performances... well WHOA ! even crush boy couldn't pass that off to "bad monitors" and embraced her inherent sucktitude, although he still luvs her eyes. ahhhhhhh. yes, blaise those doe eyes. but hey b, that's legit. it helps... she did have a skilled vibist wincing with her there and she IS dark...

oh come on clas, you know how every muddy waters tune is gonna end, too. the soul:complexity ratio is variable for me but one MUST compensate for lack of the other. of course as lars astutely illuminates, sometimes we get both. his case in point ? MIKE STERN of COURSE ! however lars, you are about a week behind on this. due to...

the missing files, seized by evil forces seeking to prevent mike stern from appearing on the next sd tour. again, this time there were no passenger jets. i believe in my heart of hearts that they came in hyjacked CARS !

dammit, i did it again ! we may need to filter "that word" for our protection !

I'm very sad all the posts between 9/13 and 9/26 have been erased. I sent a message to the Dandom Digest, hoping I might find someone who visited sometime on or around the 9/26 and not since. Hopefully someone can cough up a cached version of the page. This would also apply to any of you reading this, who might have a second computer were a cached version might exsist...As I said in the message to the digest, a T-Shirt is in it for any/all who help.

On a MUCH lighter note (and music related). Steve Shapiro, vibe player on Two Against Nature, has a new CD out and it is FANTASTIC. I'm listening to it right now. May I suggest you run right over to his website and purchase a copy. I'm pretty well convinced anyone who likes Steely Dan and Modern Jazz will appreciate the music.

http://www.xylophobia.com

StAl

ranking by importance on the GB and in the world

politics-60%

Steely Dan/Music-30%

other-9.8%

Clas-.02%

rogue elephant

Clas - 55%

Politics - 30%

Steely Dan/music - 10%

other - 5%

Clas, love you or hate you, they can't stop talking about you. If you had an album out you'd be "bigger than Jesus".

rogue anon

Clas answer the question -- wasn't Palestine "illegally" taken from the Jews in the first place? I guess that was so long ago it doesn't count? Why did your people shelter Nazis and let them perpetrate the holocaust?

Face the face = pot calling the kettle black

'nuff said.

Excelsior!

Gina = hypocrite
'nough said...

...and now I've got to run out and return that live Fiona Apple box set I got steviedan for Christmas...

THE PEACE
ENCYCLOPEDIA

The War of Independence, 1948

QUESTION:
What was Israel's War of Independence? Independence from whom?
ANSWER:
On May 14, 1948, against all the odds, the modern state of Israel was reborn. At four o'clock that afternoon the members of the provisional national council, led by David Ben-Gurion, met in the Tel Aviv Art Museum. Ben-Gurion rose and read the following proclamation to the assembled guests:

The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here there spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world.

Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained, faithful to it in all countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and the restoration of their national freedom. . .

Accordingly we, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assemble today, the day of the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine, by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish people and the Resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations, hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL . . .

With trust in Almighty God, we set out hand to this declaration, at this session of the Provisional State Council, in the city of Tel Aviv, on this Sabbath eve, the fifth year of Iyar, 5708, the fourteenth day of May, 1948.

The key to this question is reflected In the behavior Of the British In 1947. When, in that year, the Arabs rejected the partition of Palestine and refused to set up the projected Arab state, the British administration, then still governing Palestine under the Mandate, refused to carry out the recommendations of the United Nations to implement the partition plan. The British government made it plain that it would do all in its power to prevent the birth of the Jewish state. Britain announced that she would not -- and indeed, she did not -- carry out the orderly transfer of any functions to the Jewish authorities in the Interim before the end of the Mandate on May 15, 1948. Everything was left In a state of disorder. This was Britain's first contribution to the burden of the nascent state.

When, immediately after the United Nations Assembly decision, the Palestine Arabs launched their preliminary onslaught on the Jewish community, the Britlsh Army gave them considerable cover and aid. It obstructed Jewish defense on the ground; it blocked the movement of Jewish reinforcements and supplies to outlying settlements; it opened the land frontiers for the entry of Arab soldiers from the neighboring Arab states; it maintained a blockade in the Mediterranean and sealed the coast and ports through which alone the outnumbered Jews could expect reinforcements; it handed over arms dumps to the Arabs. When Jaffa was on the point of falling to a Jewish counterattack, it sent in forces from Malta to bomb and shell the Jewish force. Meanwhile, it continued to supply the Arab states preparing to invade across the borders with all the they asked for and made no secret of it.

- Samuel Katz, Battleground: Fact and fantasy in Palestine

In 1948, after the UN voted to give Israel statehood, Jordan and 6 other Arab countries invaded the reborn Jewish homeland, despite the fact that those Arab states were not directly affected by Israel's rebirth. The stated purpose of this invasion was to "push the Jews into the sea", i.e. genocide. What Hitler didn't finish three years earlier, the Arabs would finish once and for all. This is not mere speculation; the Arabs of the former British Mandate of Palestine were led by a Nazi collaborator, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who was up for charges at Nuremberg before escaping in 1946. Entire books have been written on how al-Husseini actively supported Hitler's aim to exterminate the Jews in WWII.
The Jews were able to secure weapons from one country only: Czechoslovakia. And through one of the greatest miracles of modern times, and a testimony to the will to survive, tiny Israel was not only able to survive intact - she was also able to capture territory from which the Arab aggressors attacked; this is the penalty for waging war (and losing), and it always has been. Unfortunately, both Jordan and Egypt were able to expand their territories; Jordan captured what is now refered to as the "West Bank" (their original Jewish names are Judea and Samaria) including the Jewish eastern half of Jerusalem (now known as "Arab East Jerusalem"), and Egypt captured what is now known as the Gaza Strip - both countries murdered and expelled EVERY Jew who was living there at the time. During the 19 years that Jordan and Egypt occupied those territories (now know collectively as the "Occupied Territories"), neither country thought to create independent states for the remaining Arabs (now known collectively as the "Palestinians") residing in those territories. Instead, those regions were plundered and allowed to rot; Jewish graves were desecrated and the gravestones were used to pave roads and build latrines, the Jewish homes were given to Arabs and mezzuzahs in the doorposts were either ripped out or just painted over (evidence of such can be found even today in "Arab East Jerusalem").

Another Antisemitic reprocussion of Israel's rebirth was that most of the Arab Muslim countries of the Middle East expelled EVERY single Jew living there and confiscated all their assets. Most of these Jewish refugees went to Israel, and in just a few years doubled Israel's population. Incidentally, the number of Jewish refugees and their posessions greatly outnumbers any claims by Arab refugees of the 1948 war. The next great miracle was the speed in which the primarily Ashkenazi Jews of Israel absorbed an equal number of their Arabic-speaking bretheren into society. By comparison, displaced Arabs were forced into refugee camps by their Arab bretheren and most remained there throughout the 19 years of Arab occupation. And contrary to popular belief, there was not a policy of expulsion of Arabs from Israel; if so it was not very successful, as 14% (and climbing) of Israels citizens are Arabs.

QUESTION:
Weren't both sides responsible for that war?
ANSWER:
"We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building-up of the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and representation in all its ... institutions.
"We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and goodwill, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land."

- David Ben-Gurion in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, May 14, 1948

How did protracted warfare first arise between Israel and the Arabs?. Not even militant Arab leaders or anti-Zionist historians could conceivably accept the view that the 1948-49 conflict was a war of Jewish origin. On February 16, 1948, the UN Palestine Commission reported to the Security Council: "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." The Arabs themselves were unambiguous in accepting responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini informed the Security Council on April 16, 1948: "The representatives of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight." As for the British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb, he remarked candidly: "Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman....They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine." Israel came into being on May 14, 1948. The five Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq immediately invaded the new microstate. Their combined intention was expressed publicly by Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."
- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue University

Damascus radio called on all Arabs to "undertake the liberation battle that will tear the hearts from the bodies of the hatefull jews and trample them in the dust" - quoted in TIME, June 2, p. 20

"the surviving Jews would be helped to return to their native countries, but my estimation is that none will survive"
- Ahmed Shuqeiri (later to be PLO chief) quoted in Churchill and Churchill, p. 52

"We were racists, admiring Nazism, reading its books and the source of its thought... Whoever lived during this period in Damascus would appreciate the inclination of the Arab people to Nazism, for Nazism was the power which could serve as its champion, and who is defeated will by nature love the victor".
- Sami al Jundi, leader of Syrian Baath party, "Al Baath" Beirut, 1961. From B. Lewis, "Semites and Anti-Semites" pp.147-148.

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacare which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacares and the crusades"
Arab Leugue Secretary General Azam Pasha, May 15, 1948 (quoted in "New Dimensions" Jan. '91).

anon de plume- nice try, asshole. but i used that handle several times already and with considerably more finesse. see archives.

'Fiona's songwriting might need some ripening a little'

Nice one blaise!

euro chat 7.00gmt sunday's
Let's see who make that
db

i'm here man
db

I always smile. why do anything else
1/2 second with dan and thats it for me.

No gas here apart from methane.

Newcastle brown ale last night (beer)
Duncan

StAl, don't tell me 13 days worth of my timeless posts went down the drain like that. Darn. Oh well...

Good thing is, you did not lose the 11th, an historical day, if there was one lately.
And jj, my canajun friend, you will see that I was smiling that very morning, shooting the shit as usual with Clas, my morning drive co-host (ha!) and virtual pal, just before it all went down. Everyone stopped smiling right there and then and some have trouble smiling since. It all depends on your interpretation of the event, I guess. You mean, if I start smiling again, everything will be alright? oh, that's novel... you sure you're Canadian?

duncan - You are alright! Reason to smile. No bacterial attack on the UK yet.

God - Like he said, drink your big Black Cow and you know...
Bwa - I'm no connaisseur of cock myself but I know women who obviously are and very good friends of mine.
Dan question o' the day: Did they write anything about the 11th?

Hmm... it's all a matter of opinion at this point but knowing their style a little, I would guess they'd rather let it all sink in, maybe? Schwinn pulled it off though. He wrote a song right away and it didn't sound too corny. I think that's the danger, sounding passe fast or a little too emotional. You never know...

Btw, mine is not a guestbook, it's a public folder. You see... we have this little Internet group set up to study Sade in the original text and every fifteen minutes or so, we ask each other if we're still stoned. That's all.

98% of people don't have a fucking clue what your on about.

i guess it's a private joke between you & your other self.. please keep it that way.

You're wasting my life

STOP IT

Is Liverlips a connoisseur of cock?

LOL

all this and you run a b&b too? gosh, you must REALLY be something!

Gina - in search for Ted Baker there«s an interesting thread ; Baker, John Beasley & Georg Wadenius all made children's songs on cd. Baker "First Favorites"(something), Beasley "Mose the Fireman" & Wadenius "God‡ God‡". Does that say something about where the boys have their ears nowadays in musicland? I mean, they stated that they don't follow the contemporary scene that good anymore (if ever since late 50ies).

You asked about Herington earlier - he plays on the new one by Mike Stern, "Voices" - very, very good.

L

I liked A.I. a lot am I bad...

Trust in the common sense is necessary only to the extent control is an issue.

As long as we indulge the common sense of the term "trust", "control" and our concern with it will only escalate like some OUT-of-control, yet predictable "prisoner's dilemma." The only "out" is to overturn the "common sense" of it. This "out" is no escape from "control" but, if you like, an active deconstruction, in the technical sense, of it.

You ACT AS IF you don't need control, and this will then serve as (psychologically) the greatest control -- IF inspiring trust (in the sense of people feeling secure becuase of you) is truly what you're about. But behold the result: they will have faith in something completely cynical, suspicious of them, guarded around them. Hence, as I said earlier, faith in something that at once is the source of their strength and yet at the same time ATTESTS TO their "strength" by being hyper-vigilent in the first place!

By the way, as those of you who follow my b&b know, in the revised parlance, this is love.

Never knew what kind of information was available at Blaise's website. No wonder you keep the url a secret.

http://www.geocities.com/mansonlamp/conOfcock/cofc.html

babies for the first few months, at least, in their life, don't blink when you slam the car door once you've put them in the car seat - it's an instinct they must somehow learn - i remembered feeling bad when my kids first blinked.....

Trust is also connected to surrender, giving up control in a situation or trying to control others, emotions and thoughts. Trust can be unconditional and if not, is something that will need some effort building.
Trust is like falling down and have faith the arms reaching out to catch you will really do just that.
Children aren't inclined to trust, they have to be encouraged to do so. But perhaps they do trust their own instincts and defense system before they trust someone else, besides themselves.
If I am to trust my own judgement or trust another individual, the answer will change if this question is asked in various stages of life.

lol... okay, okay hang on... am still researching the matter.

I hear they have decided to rename the Pentagon...

Its to be called the Horseshoe

guess i didn't cut the genetic mustard, eh?

Name:


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 12:19:08
Comments:

"You are talking about trust on a global level I'm assuming, because trust on a
personal level with a constant level of guardedness is not total trust."

But that was the point: You are assuming a definition that I'm not allowing. If all you mean by trust is "letting your guard down," then that's lazyness/escape. I'm saying "trust" which is ONLY that, is NOT trust.

What it means in the conventional case is, you start out with an basically anxious/insecure/fearful person, and they find someone/thing that soothes/comforts them. I counterpose the following: A person so unfearful/secure that they don't experience guardedness as a burden -- as a "required" response to a negative -- and thus can have a different rationale for BEING guarded, ie, as a positive initiative (ie, NOT a response) to a "neutral."

Name: Gina
some did utter that thought

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 12:04:15
Comments:

even before i posted it here, Duncan .. on the Blue Book, where most or many of Dannered ideas and thoughts are expressed these days.
as far as my memory serves me well, Donald did mention they had lots of material when recording 2VN to make another CD. i have no clue HOW exactly they record their songs. if it's just WB, DF and Roger Nichols and crew in the studio taping the initial ideas or if they have musicians there already .. according to what Nigey Lennon said having spoken to Cornelius Bumpus, he's present as in working with them? i also wonder about mr. Bumpus as much as mr. Ted Baker. Cornelius must have a tremendous sense for music and not just where it concerns his own role/instrument over the years .. being a Doobie.
~ being able to watch the Making of Aja and Plush will fill in some gaps i guess :-)
irony is obligatory in SD music .. i am most curious about the lyrics and topics on the new one and what links to human errors, strange behaviour we recognize with a grin or smirking hiccup.
there are ample other recording artists now working on new projects .. rumor has it RLJ and Joe Jackson have teamed up again ..
Fiona Apple, she looks real nice and her songs have sweet titles but the music is like tinged with rage, disorder, chaos, disbelieve? an angry young woman, but unlike Alanis M. i don't hear any link to what was described as syncopation used in jazz in a song featuring as single? but there will be an audience out there, tuned in to her views and colors.

since i found this GB i left a couple of times, like many have done before me but they never came back, i felt and feel close to this forum that has been a "friendly oasis" and an interesting place, i met nice people i've bonded with against odds maybe. i can even speak of friendship, yes!
there is some bickering going on and off, but that way of quarreling (spelling) is rather sweet and so part of this GB. . because of the format and WRITTEN words this is right up my alley and i admire both Steviedan and Stranger's strong feelings about not wanting this place to go down the drain.
well, it won't.

Banyan Tree Bow,
G.

Name: Read my lips


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 11:59:02
Comments:

Over-used phrase du jour: "Make no mistake."

Name: StAlphonzo
piece of shit test

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 11:53:36
Comments:

BAM!

Name: Randy
NIGHTFLY62@aol.com
NJ USA
Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 11:44:01
Comments:

I've been reading the many comments that various patrons of the guestbook have decided to post; many have been vicious, thoughtless, presumptuous, unfair, short-sighted, unintelligent, self-righteous, and worst of all, boring. The number of these types of posts to which I am referring appears to have increased incrementally and in tandem with the events of September 11th. To those posters and the petty, witless minds from which they came I say the following:

a. Grow up;
b. open your mind(s);
c. Drink your big black cow and get out of here.

Randy
NIGHTFLY62@aol.com

Name: jeff johnson
middlewood,nova scotia,canada

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 08:25:28
Comments:

Duncan/Gina: Sept.11 influence on SD work? Never thought about it. Interesting. My quick reaction would be to say no influence, unless some over-used phrase develops as a result and becomes commonly used, and they stick it in their lyrics somewhere.

Blaise : Smile, brother. The world is what you make it. Don't be so bitter.

Name: The Quickening
Reality

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 08:08:43
Comments:

http://www.artbell.com/quickeng.html

Check out the various news items over time.....it's the Quickening....

http://www.artbell.com/quicknews.html

Name: Duncan
spooky

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 07:54:33
Comments:

Gina I had the same thought not long after the 11th

But I chose not to publish..

Name: Gina
"Gina- my god"

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 07:35:54
Comments:

mmm, no, you gotto do that all over again, sorry dear. could you add a little more drama, maybe even spit some when you speak?
did you watch the Berklee Tribute by the way? notice Walter Becker and Donald Fagen in the audience? would you consider it optional for more women vocals on a next tour or even CD?
how do you think the event of Tuesday 11th will influence their work or writing if they're still in the midst of it all?

Name:


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 07:32:00
Comments:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175979,00.html

Name:


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 07:12:10
Comments:

Angel: It's true. It might have been in a Rolling Stone interview. Donald gave reasons (which I can't remember right now) on why he like Fiona Apple. Believe it or not...it's true!

Name:


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 07:08:36
Comments:

Gina - my god, you babble. Who do you think you are? Such a snob you are. And, sorry to inform you, you're not as intelligent or enlightened as you seem to think. Just a waste of space here, there or in chat.

Name: Gina
did anyone say ...

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 06:54:37
Comments:

rash?

oh Face dear ‡nd company ofcourse, go easy on that testosteron for it should not be operational in your system. it might have a fall out when it encounters your fear for the feminist basher prowling these Banyan Trees, remember? this is a Steely Dan forum?
i had this neat idea to come into chat each day i log on, sort of a silent protest against the GB pollution happening here and causing so many real nice people to not frequent these yellow pages for information about quality music, new releases, concert reviews, funny and witty musings, Dannesque en Steely-ish posts. with all due respect i'm most certain of isn't mutual, you have no business here and even abuse the Steely Dan chatroom for your petty parlor or is it pity parlor ramblings you call casual conversation. by all means, i'd rather you stay in there than come here or lurk or post anonymous. see how your grapevine works, blablablabla, oh my god ... Gina said this and Gina wrote that and oh my god ... LOL
hello??? are you for real? are you serious?

inspired by military and nonviolent events and happenings the world we live in has shown us over the years, i am now convinced it is a great idea to plant my name or handle in that chatroom, each day i spark up this notebook. don't even assume i will really be in there to witness your cozy little get togethers. and don't worry, coverage of this experiment will be done in dutch and if you all cooperate nicely like guinea-pigs in a laboratory i might consider you're worth 15 minutes of european fame ...

Name: angel
TGIF

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 06:16:14
Comments:

Fiona Apple. I somehow can't see Donald saying he likes her music. Walter yes, Donald no. Does anyone have a link to that comment? Just wondering.

Kinky: Was that REALLY you, or is someone just running with the ball here.

Ole: Thanks for the message from Kinky. BTW, you have been a bit scarce so I did not get to wish you a Happy New Year. I do so now. Better late than never. :-)

Clas: Essa Pekka. Nice conductor.

Blaise: Leaked again, sigh....

Good weekend all....

Name: Lamar Alexander #2
musky, Victor Mature-like scent

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 05:34:23
Comments:

http://books.dreambook.com/blaisie/main.html

Name: let GEORGE do it
clasisaass

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 05:06:01
Comments:

clas- You're NOT funny.

kinky- Welcome back my friend!

Steveedan- Let's see, you hate Fiona and Donald loves her....who should I listen to?

Name:


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 05:03:18
Comments:

Nope, sorry. It's been taken down.

Name: FaceTheFace
justwondering

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 04:59:45
Comments:

Anyone got the link to Blaise's guestbook? I hear there is some trash there written by Gina (is that any surprise?) that I should read.

I realize that if you tell me you are going to have to kill me...

Name: Clas
@ work

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 04:37:05
Comments:

God - but Cincinnati, what about Cincinnati? Couldn't Letterman have Cincinnati?

C

Name: god


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 04:23:14
Comments:

This is GOD. I godda a solution to some of your nasty problems down there. Now listen up, first I hear you have this problem with Palestine and Israel. Now I know some of you think I told Abraham to give his inheritance to Issac and I might have. I also might have been drunk or something. Hey, Even God needs a day off every eon or so! So here's the plan tell the Jews to get out of there, are they meshugnah? Give up the land let the Palestinians and the Arabs have it, just divy it up real nice (and as fairly as Solomon would have) for them, don't let them fight over it. Get the U.N. in on this OK?

What? Oh, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's every other person's holy place. Give it up! The Holy Land is a theme park in Florida. Yes, that one's for the Christians but... so that's the new Christian Holy Land and they godda (laugh at that joke or you're goin' to hell...) stop charging admission. North Dakota is the new one for the Jews (hey, do you want cold winters or someone bombing the daylights out of you every week? I thought so). And for the Muslims, some place in Ethiopia (they need the commerce).

So where are all these Israelites supposed to move? North Dakota, this shouldn't be any big problem since they have approximately ten times the room and less then a tenth of Israel's population. And since Israel's commerce was mostly from service, rather than agriculture you shouldn't have too much of a problem with stepping on anyone's toes in the job market. Since all young men and women from Israel are used to joining up with the Israeli Army they can join up with the U.S. Armed Forces. The government in the U.S. is set up on roughly the same system as Israel's was, of course maybe you could buy North Dakota from the ND's they could all move or retire to other states like Florida (which will have to put a detour sign (to Louisiana) if many more get that idea, or start charging taxes).

But I'm getting off the subject here; I had something else to say something else about Florida, oh, yes...

Sorry about taking a nap the day of the elections, some of the angels thought it would be funny to make some of those poor old South Floridians vote for Buchanan instead of Gore. So it's their job cleaning up after Georgie boy W. should keep them busy for a long time. A long time indeed. That's why I need you to take care of the other on your own.

Love,
God

Name: god
*

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 04:21:10
Comments:

Testing, testing

Name:


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 03:54:52
Comments:

A kamikaze pilot's concrete leap of faith:

"Everybody hates death, fears death," according to a translation of highlights of the document obtained by The Washington Post. "But only those, the believers who know the life after death and the reward after death, would be the ones who will be seeking death."
[...]
It continues: "Purify your heart and clean it from all earthly matters. The time of fun and waste has gone. The time of judgment has arrived. Hence we need to utilize those few hours to ask God for forgiveness. You have to be convinced that those few hours that are left you in your life are very few. From there you will begin to live the happy life, the infinite paradise. Be optimistic. The prophet was always optimistic."
[...]
Keep a very open mind, keep a very open heart of what you are to face," the document says. "You will be entering paradise. You will be entering the happiest life, everlasting life."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37629-2001Sep27.html

Oh gawd...

Name: Balise
my poison's name, you know my brand

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 02:24:03
Comments:

stevie dan - I don't feel that strongly about her music. I think she does write more than words and she's more my kind of girl, giving out that "wounded deer" feel. I just can't help being touched. Most of you are into sheeps, I'm into deers. To each his/her own. This one, the little poison Apple, I'd consider talking to first, sure. The other I wish would be silenced, like shut up and dance over there or something.
But like a good Canadien, I'd attempt to tell both of them what's what, of course.

I'd rather give than receive the paddle. I'm so inclined. Be advised. The only reason I'd keep one on top is if she's doing all the dirty work. I'm a Leo, what can I say? pfft
Now never mind me, go ahead kinky man and keep tongueing Clas like that. I know I'm entertained...

Clas - You can have God bless the other part of Canada instead. They need it more badly and I really don't give two shits about it myself. For the record, they sang God Bless America at every hockey, baseball, football and basketball game for over a Century now. Obviously, it's the kind of blessing I could do without, know what I'm saying?
My apologies to Muslims, Jews and Christians for ridiculing their strong, world-driving beliefs in this bold manner but frankly, I couldn't care less ("oh my gawd, that idiot, he's goin' to burn in hell"). This freak in his Grotto over there calls to arms his likeness around the world against Judeo-Christians "crusaders" and little Bush boy, that stupid beast with seven heads, he just confirms it all by quoting the Bible at every turn. WTF? Can't wait 'til you people finally come to your senses. I got kids here, dammit! Hopefully, you'll have the balls to do it in my lifetime. Faith, that's so medieval-like in every way, both litterally and figuratively. It's a cop out from facing the insignificance of your being thrown into this world and you're inevitable disappearing from it. Get with the fucking program already.
I bet Donald and Walter avoid this place here simply 'cause it's crawling with backwards-thinking, god-fearing baffoons. My take.
Sadly, secularization of the mind is a long way away. Look it up, y'all.
Other than that, it's a quiet beautiful Fall morning out there. The air is fresh, still Anthrax-free.
Enjoy.

Name: steviedan
hey kd ?

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 01:02:40
Comments:

is that you ?

Name: anon
bitch!

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 00:53:05
Comments:

I'm the one, thee one, who trashed on Fio-ner this time last night...

I do believe Donald was honest in liking Fiona. I don't doubt it for a second, she pisses me off as much/if not more than anyone I know, but I'd bet an uncaring square like Don likes her. Her chords are cool, he reasons, and it heartens him to get to listen to something recent instead of DeBussy these days.

But, once again, Britney and her brethern aren't trying to play me for suckers. God bless them for telling the truth: being a white kid under the age of 22 is as good as it gets (I should know), 'might as well have some fun until the hammer drops.

Until then, Fiona can have her own shindig saying "maaaan" at her latest shitty poetry reading.

Name: Ooooops
sorry Blaise,

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 00:35:49
Comments:

and parts of Canada too.

Amen,

C

Name: Clas
@ work

Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 00:34:21
Comments:

Lars! Did you watch TV last night? Samla Mammas Manna, Hoola Bandoola Band, FlŠsket Brinner (ha! Gunnars gamla band!) and Naionalteatern. Mmm, we were getting sentimental over old times at our place.

God Bless Me and America,

C

Name: Dragon


Date: Friday, September 28, 19101 at 00:02:19
Comments:

Wait a minute, when did we get privacy rights on email?

StAl Ð Where did you hide the latest edit from the GB? IÕve now lost from TuesdayÕs post Òangel? devil?Ó to the bottom of this page.

Linda Ð whomever you are, IÕm an artist (whoÕs not sure why Duncan is scratching his head, maybe someone insulted you? If they did they better have a good reason). The drawing and painting kind of artist, I have nothing to point you toward yet but maybe some URLs next week. If you are new, welcome!

Does reading credit card records include those CC check cards? Anyone?

Name: Clas
@ work

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 23:54:39
Comments:

StevieDan - I don't know who this Fiona is, sounds scary. And hey, you actaually saw this Swedish folkmusic on TV? That's boring stuff, really. The Finnish Conductor Esa Pekka Salonen was asked on TV once what he thought of that kind of music;

-Shit boring, after the first two bars I know how the song will end. It's so predictable.

---

Guess Who - thanks for paying the depts to the UN. Right on time, uh?

C

Name: steviedan
apple basher

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 23:33:16
Comments:

now blaise of course ms spears is the poseur DELUXO, albeit with a better support system so to speak. now you may have me praising her drummer, who like n*sync's drummer is as good as that kind of budget calls for. or the production team, those swedish ditty-laureates on their ability to grab an audience of jillions with mediocre disney showbiz kidz lipsyncing along. but at least MUSICALLY, you get some semblance of a pre-fesshunul show for your hardearned duckats. fiona live is all angst and no pitch. the clips i've seen on the tube showed me bandmembers in PAIN. visibly. her records DO sound better, as do nelly furtado's with that sonic charity job that only their studio voice-dressers know for sure. but no one can help them live unless they go the lipsync route and maybe they should, i guess. she writes good words ? so do alot of people that are referred to as poets and lyricists. does that mean that walt whitman should have cut some tracks and flown a couple of singles ? spoken word is cool. jewel's done it [cringe] and she can even sing... somewhat.

two final points. i'm SURE donald was deadpanning as usual (this is the same guy that complains about synth tuning temperament for god's sake) and YES, britney will cover "across the universe" when someone tells her the "pornstar/pimp" phase is done and the new "reflective artiste" phase begins. that will probably be after her first non-successful effort which will most likely be the next one.

Name: At this point in time
you've got to admit it....

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 23:17:30
Comments:

DrMu- As much as I hate to disagree with you... I noticed you said INF too and thought it was a typo until you wrote it twice. Nice excuse though.

Name: µ
and

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 22:32:46
Comments:

The Ben Folds new one is CLASSIC. Beyond my expectations..

Name: µ


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 22:30:21
Comments:

Kinky - glad you're alive and kicking, "F" is simply 2 doors down from "S" on the keyboard. That's what I get for saluting with my middle finger while typing...which I tend to do on this board...I'm doing it right now!

BTW, when using quotations, the period or comma is placed INSIDE. Ex. "Doctor." NOT "Doctor". But then that may be that "Canadian" English you're using!

Name: Guess Who?
Stalkholm

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 21:29:12
Comments:

Clas - You're a real winner. I lost a lot of sleep over how your dog's shit was gonna turn out... but I just knew you'd be there to catch it. And yeah, that squirrel story was really something. What a display of humanity on your part. I mean, you find this half dead squirrel, you don't have the balls to kill it, then you ask some "happy dude with a Coke and a mc Donalds bag" (in Clas speak: an American wannabe -- i.e. every Swede, if truth be told) to kill it,and he doesn't want to either, so you berate him. So, let's see, you chicken out, but when the guy that likes a fast, consistent cheeseburger won't do it, he's an inhumane coward. Ok, that makes sense. Poor Clas can't stand the fact that this guy is eating Big Mac's instead of Julskinka and he's "happy".

Actually Clas, I'm very glad you told this story -- As Clas wrote: "And I could'nt see him suffering so I took him and he bite me, the fucking bastard." Yeah Clas, that's how we feel about you and your irrelevant country... we try to help and do the right thing for your people, and you pathetic assholes side with the terrorists (yeah, you're pro Palestina and your country's neutral... same diff) -- sad thing is that we didn't put YOU out of your misery.

Clas, I do apologize for all the slang, I realize your web-translator can't decipher it all, maybe you can write Ruby and ask her what it's all about.

Q - You're making amends with Clas? After everything thing he's done? And I thought you knew better...

Dr. Moo - What the fuck is INF? Do you read the papers? Magazines? The ticker on the bottom of any and every major television network? It's INS, you imbecile! Immigration and Naturalization Service. INF stands for Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces, hardly the organization that would be guarding our borders. Thanks... you must be the reason Clas gets his ideas about Americans only knowing what's on the tube. I mean, "F" and "S" are phonetically similar, which can only mean that you get your news aurally... very sad. And you call yourself "Doctor". Maybe you're one of those pathetic Canadians we have here that are trying to tell us what's what, but have never stood up for their own front porch.... But, from what I recall -- and it pains me to say -- I'm afraid you're one of US.

By the way, Mu, your idiocy does in no way detract from the losses you've suffered... I feel your pain, man. Believe you me.

K

Name: Dragon


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 21:20:36
Comments:

"Tarantula" I read that book. By some hairy lipped person by the name of Bob Dylan. As for some moving object invented by a woman (not necessarily a radical feminist): the wheel. Heh heh heh!

But you know the real difference between the men and the boy-- uhmm, maybe that's a bad analogy, uh, how about those that will not and those that do. Men can and (way too) often leave loved ones (love being a verb and "d" being past tense) pregnant asses behind in a bind. Women cannot leave this situation behind they DO deal with it, however they chose or must deal with it.

now i must be back to my tarantula snuggling -- oh, wait, I'm an arachnophobia, so it must be my sheep -- ewe. No, I kid. No goats, Please! yuck yuck
=========================================
btw Ð concerning Ô57 ChevyÕs Ð people who donÕt see them as sensible: those concerned with gas mileage and/or aerodynamics. But then they arenÕt supposed to be sensible anymore; just works of art.

Blaise -- I didn't say victims, I say all those affected which is more than the victims, but the families, friends, and many others including ordinary citizens like me and you that might not be directly affected by any loss but who might be overcome by a sense of loss. Give it another week or two tops, then maybe something like that footage of dubyah slapping Laura on the ass just before she steps in front of a podium should creep back on Letterman.

As for research on men's health, men are much more likely to be subjects of research and said research extrapolated to include women e.g. heart disease research. The result of which was disastrous for women because their symptoms of heart attack vary greatly from men. But I digress, the mortality rate for males of all ages seems to be higher then for females, for the most part it's a medical mystery, for young teenage and adult males the reason includes excessive risk taking and in times of war, well the obvious.

Dr. Wu -- my condolences on the loss of your friend and band mate.

Here's a name I don't think I've seen on this board before: David Byrne, another pop genius that gets very little airplay outside of his Talking Heads days. He did get a lot of TV airplay when his "Million Miles Away" was the theme song of "Flying Blind" that great little show that was so much better a vehicle for Tea Leoni then that awful tabloid themed show. But I digress, discuss David Byrne freely...

I'm a fan of Bill Maher, but unfortunately missed what he said that has everyoneÕs underwear in a twist. Could someone enlighten me, please?

Glad to hear KinkySoNSo has finally checked in, the bastard.

All the best,
Dragon

Name: oleander
speaking of Kinky

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 20:39:24
Comments:

... he has checked in at last:

"Please inform my fans that I am ok..... but they are not."

Thanx, Kink.

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 19:50:52
Comments:

CHIRP?

Name: G.
Circle of Life

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 15:03:10
Comments:

the only leads available on the ODP made me follow the roar of the Lion King and the world of musical, Broadway and theatre.
to be involved as a musician can only be a grand experience.
i wouldn't even begin to imagine the wealth of Ted Baker's mind and i vividly remember Rotterdam, his interlude and the slide show images against the wall ..
circles of life indeed.

Name: Gina
Tadpole

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 14:28:02
Comments:

can't recall if i have ever seen these, whether for real or in books or on television. somehow this state of being seems appropriate, imagine what it is you are once the egg you live in decided it's time to enter the world .. and then you wait until you've blossomed into your most adult life form.
tadpole. some of the people behind some of the posts, the nameless faceless ones, they inspire to a vivid imagery somehow.
thank you.

i tried for Ted Baker in numerous search engines but a lot of others came up, not the Steely Dan Tour pianist.
now what?

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 14:06:32
Comments:

was that necessary?

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 13:57:44
Comments:

What's that nasty smell? Oh, it's just Gina.

Name: Gina
dick or dickette?

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 13:32:37
Comments:

slow or no real traffic since i last logged on. still trying to get the size of some rare but enlightening education i had just a few secs ago. hm. hand me the biggest one to shove in some of those anon's mouths, that should keep them busy for a while :-)
or be like Bam Bam and hit rock bottom ...
oh you faceless feminist basher to roam these banyan premises ever again, if you only knew what knowledge there is on the likes of your kind in cyberspace ...

sometimes posts here have little to do with the Almighty Two, chat really seems like a deserted Steely Dan studio where only some of the old furniture is left .. and people use it not aware of what it really was or is or supposed to be .. like on some foggy day an old man comes into your garden and says " here's where i buried my cat when he died. and here's where i had this tree my great great great grandfather used to hang his slaves when they rather picked on him than pick cotton. and see that red rock over there? an alien gave me that as a present in return for letting him have my wife. yes. and now all of this has turned into a lovely garden, how nice of you."

so what happened to Ted Baker ... is he involved in the new SD project ... what about mr. Herington? the Babe Choir?
the Berklee Tribute sure showed if women would do the vocal honors the songs come alive another way, not necessarily better if certainly not worse. but different. refreshing.
and no word on the Carey/Joni Tribute either??

Banyan Tree Waiting For Those Mystery D's Bow,
G.

Name: luckless pedestrian
slow on the yellow, cookin on the amen
Location: dayquil, to nyquil
Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 13:24:43
Comments:

this is to register a complaint with all of you in chat with me the other night that were sick - now i'm sick - nothing like breaking a fever in the middle of an interview...

Name: Love That Clas Link
ClasSeptember@MunichOlympics.nut

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 10:22:08
Comments:

Clas didn't the Arabs "illegally" take "palestinia" from the Jews in the first place? Didn't the Swedes attempt illegally to take over Russia, Poland and the Ukraine? Why is your memory so short? Do you suffer from Long Term Memory Loss? Have you ever been out before?

Name: Sorry, Cholly
couldn't resist

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 10:13:52
Comments:

http://members.aol.com/KinkySoNSo/sweden.htm

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 09:32:37
Comments:

yes, i'm there

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 09:19:37
Comments:

sh..sorry i lost you in chat...lets blame it on the Talibums!

try the other one?

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 08:54:11
Comments:

Gina-- Killing you softly? I WISH!

Name: dano
in the house

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 08:27:34
Comments:

flori , chere all ok in mouseland the phone number is 14079961600 saturday and sunday quiet for me guys but i have no transport, having a dooser of a crack and most Americans in good spirits and having a sound time. need to leg it tito Universal for a crack. if you guys are about blast me on room 1471. regards dano

Name: Bearing kind thoughts for Clas


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 07:55:43
Comments:

How funny it is to rattle chains of those who live in freedom.
It works and it is I don't know, very very funny.

Name: Paige
paige@silcom.com

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 07:53:42
Comments:

Never seen Fiona live. Sorry to hear that she is so disrespectful to her fans. My 18 year old daughter turned me on to one of her CDs and I was immediately hooked.

I suppose she does appeal to the bi-polar crowd out there...of which I must be a member. Now that I review my tastes, they seem to lean in that direction anyway...Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, The Wall, Steely Dan, etc. etc.

For me, it was refreshing to hear an alternative to the corporate bands that seem so popular now.

-Paige

Name: µ


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 07:52:11
Comments:

Just found out yesterday that five souls from my old school perished in the WTC, including someone from my class and a priest. May they not have suffered terribly and RIP...

Name: I heard it was you
diary of a classhole stalker

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 07:42:12
Comments:

Yeah, only a fool would say that knowing Clas was once bitten by a possibly rabid swedish squirrel. Now, that's a fine excuse for being an asshole. What's yours again?

Name: Only a fool is named Clas
A world become one

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 07:28:09
Comments:

Clas,

Arafat founded the PLO in 1964 (the Palestinian Liberation Organization) to eliinate Israel. All of the territories he claims to want to liberate when speaking English (ie. East Jerusalem), the Palestian people had in 1964; they lost East Jerusalem, et al. in 1967. He wants to eliminate Israel, and he clearly states that in Arabic media all of the time.

BTW, it's illegal for Palestinians to own land, hold civil service jobs, or have a host of other basic rights in Lebanon, which is now really ruled by Syria. We don't hear much about this in the news.

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 06:13:44
Comments:

I know it's early but, chat anyone?

Name: Oop's
overspelled

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 06:10:25
Comments:

That should have been Talibangram...not gramgram. Didn't backspace far enough...

ps...Rev. Al is so pissed..it turns out the Talibums called the wrong number. He has decided to return to the Jailhouse Spa for more of the weight loss program they offer there.

Name: PS
and Fletch?

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 06:04:08
Comments:

your skinny gal .. www.carolynleonhart.com

Name: Cyn
paging Rev. Jackson...you have a Taligramgram

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 06:03:40
Comments:

Now it seems Jesse was contacted by telegram... But it was a "Taligram".

It was Rev. Al Sharpton who got the phone call(collect of course)..LOL.

Am sitting here imagining a singing telegram....and thats the "gospel" truth.

clas...love/hate? Thats a fine line relationship. Glad to hear Pompe is doing doo-doo better and not eating you out of house and home.

Name: Gina
Mush?

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 05:50:09
Comments:

Mus is the dutch word for sparrow and mus also is a word used to address women as in being a chick ... or rather a dumb chick if this ain't the same like saying rain is wet and violets are blue.
Mercy killings, hm .. yes .. made me wonder about the word "mercenary" and its meaning .. another word i like: m e l l i f l u o u s ..it means smooth flowing or sweet sounding but you break your tongue pronouncing it :-)

hey there Steviedan, Blaise .. never heard of Fiona Apple will google her then to know what you're discussing here ..
and yes thank you, Lee Konitz is a sweet funny and quiet man, very modest given his impressive resumŽ and experience in the field and world of music and jazz. now back on stage again after heart surgery .. real nice to have met him and all, he survived all of them, didn't he? Miles, Bird, Gillespie etc.
when in Hoorn, jazzweekend, i got me a Nnenna Freelon CD .. Maiden Voyage .. her voice is like a mixture, Aretha Franklin and Billie Holiday and even a dash of Eartha Kitt, not exactly my fav in vocal colors, still .. this gave me the chills so it must be alright then!!
always pleased if vocalists are surrounded by outstanding musicians, not just to back up the singing, but also as if the singing is part of a bigger frame.
and about songs being written, or performed or interpreted ... i think some forget there's clear distinction in the quality of a song, a composition. doubt whether it's worth discussing the megabucks industry shooting blanks. no real bullets, no silver even to keep the werewolves down .. sorry if i can't stop the imagery of guns, i'll bring up Rose Darlin' to compensate?

it all depends on who sang the tunes first. Julie Andrews was the first in the Sound of Music, but a lot of those songs she did, were sung with more spunk, more thrills and not as goody two shoes sweet. My favorite things, i have a mean version by Carmen Lundy and great musical arrangement, Deborah J. Carter had me shivered speechless in Hoorn doing that song .. what voice this lady has LIVE ..
songs eased into eternity by Ol' Blue Eyes Sinatra will never sound like his renditions ..
some are inspired by others and stand model for a story. always a special ring to it if one plays a song specially written for her or him .. so i wouldn't say it's specific or better if one is to use own material. some can't write. and i really really am not even considering any of those you know who not .. good songwriting is good when it can stand the test of time???
and i am still amazed it's Donald Fagen's wife Libby Titus who co-wrote Love Has No Pride, sung by and Bonnie Raitt and Linda Ronstadt, as far as i know .. are there others?
enough already.

Banyan Tree Mer See Killing Me Softly Bow,
G.

Name: The Truth
is.....

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 05:18:07
Comments:

In a interview with Donald Fagen two years ago.

Q-Any new bands that you like these days?

DF- Fiona Apple

Name: Clas
@ work

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 04:39:40
Comments:

CYN! I love you! That's why I hate you! Pompe is not shitting and eating so much now, we changed his food. Pompe is now a Health Fooderer.

---

Gina - the only thing I kill nowdays is mouses*, with those mouse-traps. I don't like it, but I am rather seeing a dead mouse than hearing Lenas whining. She's afraid of those. I am saying, -it's just small housemouses, you can buy those in a zoologic store for christ sake.

But no fishing, no worms, maybe some flies now and then.

But once I found a squirrel on the road with his half body flat as a pancake. He was trying to get up from the gutter to the safe of the sidewalks. He couldn't. And I couldn't see him suffering so I took him and he bite me, the fucking bastard, then I looked around seeing if there was someone who could help me end his pain. And along comes a happy dude with a Coke and a mc Donalds bag and I asked him if he could help me.

-Sure, he said, he found a stone and I put down the squirrel on the sidewalk, and when this happy guy lifted his hand with the stone, he said;

-no, I can't.

I yelled at him;

-YOU HAVE TO! Can't you see this poor bastard is suffering, big time! I took the stone from him and crashed his head (the squirrels I might add) and it was awful.

---

the Stranger - I can't find anything about Arafat has been a member of Black September.

Not even ABC News Ó Arafat, BiographyÓ (such West-propaganda!) said anything about Arafats being connected to Black September.

And I prefer to believe the guy at the Saudi Arabian embassy, I have no reason to believe he's desinforming me about his country just for the reason he's an Arab. If you theirfore are saying I don't know where to find information and I am stupid and have guilt for being a white European man, well, that's your problem.

I am still Pro Palestina. The bottom line in the Israel/Palestina issue is:

Israeli settlers are illegaly taking Palestinian territories, Israel is a tyrannical regime and Palestinians are acting on that. They are throwing stones and they commit suicide-attacks where innocent people are dying, that's crazy, it's awful, and there's no defense for such actions.

I am saying that I can understand the mechanism's behind a terror-action, but that is not making me a defender of such actions.

---

re; earlier comments - your information about Saudi Arabian woman was taken from salon.com, an American board. I don't trust/believe that information. My source at the Saudi Arabian embassy are saying, for example, 40% of the companies in Saudi Arabia are owned by woman. I'll get back to you, I have more stuff coming from the Embassy, hopefully tomorrow.

C

*the word ÓmouseÓ in Swedish is ÓmusÓ. That's slang for the female, he he, šh, the female, well that stuff woman are sitting on. The GoldMine.

Name:


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 04:00:10
Comments:

I believe you could draw a classification of fans based on which midriff they prefer. That would be telling. Of course, you'd have to take into account those who couldn't tell the difference here. Like that last one, for example.

Name: Cyn
Operater....Can you help me make this call?

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 03:54:32
Comments:

Okkkkk....Just how the hell did the Taliban get Jesse Jackson's phone number?
Is it 1-800-?(Help here, people)

In all, I do hope he can sucure the release of those 3 American Relief workers that are being held and who might face certain death after their trial.

Jeff J.....Well Said!

Name: Fletch_NZ
Steely DVD
NZ
Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 03:50:37
Comments:

Long time since I've been to this board. Does anyone talk about Steely Dan here anymore?.....lol
I just bought and watched the Dans' 'Plush TV Jazz/Rock' DVD, and I have to say WOW!!!.....That female singer in the middle looks spectacular!! :. Oh, and the music is pretty good, too ;)

I am a bit disappointed with Walters guitar playing on it. I love his studio solos from Bad Sneakers and FM and even the ones on the new album on Jack of Speed, etc. Live, however, he just seems to noodle and not go anywhere :(. If there was ever a solo that deserved to be played note-for-note it is Bad Sneakers. Why 'improvise' a new one? ANd not a very good one at that. I think the guys take this jazz improvisation thing a bit far.

Having said that, I do like his live solo's on Reelin in the Years off the Made In America CD. Very interesting. Though I think he may have worked that one out offstage.

Now back to watching that female singer....Where can I find my 'skinny girl'? .......*sigh*.....

Name: blaise
carrying on

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 03:45:26
Comments:

Although I understand your point about pretense in writing, generally speaking, I figure It's better than no writing at all or than have it all handled by mathematical songwriting schemes built upon what was successful in the past.
Now, of course, Fiona's songwriting might need some ripening a little but at least she ASPIRES to Joni status. It gives one hope in the future, that there will be some substance there, even if somewhat pretentious around the edges, not just this predictable crap. On most of these "songs" by these "artists", you can hear the changes coming around the block. That is really sad.
All is not lost though, if Fiona and such (i'm at a loss for another example here and that's telling) survive the genuine troubles of the soul they're invoved in and grow older, apply themselves at being timely and relevant... you never know.

Name: jeff johnson
middlewood,nova scotia,canada

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 03:08:59
Comments:

One more time and I'll let it be.
Well(your name here), I was with you until your last post(sorry Paige). You are talking about trust on a global level I'm assuming, because trust on a personal level with a constant level of guardedness is not total trust. Either you trust someone or you don't. No middle ground, at least on a personal level.
If you are talking globally I understand that there can be many levels of trust with a degree of guardedness which could inspire others to trust.

Enough, already. I must drink my tea and start the day. The outpatients are walking by now, wondering when I'll start the daily torture. Now there's trust. Wear a lab coat and all of a sudden you become a professional who people trust to stick needles into them. Thank you sir, may I have another?

Name: Blaise
rule of thumb

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 02:55:46
Comments:

I prefer anyone writing their own songs. Singing other people's (or other people's computer-generated) songs and feigning that it represents you or even worse, that you wrote it yourself, that's insulting one's intelligence.
Granted, the general public is not known to give a fuck who writes the songs anyway. It's a matter of principle. When Madonna sang Express Yourself, her mantra, she really meant express your inner Giorgio Moroder. Make no mistake.

Name: Britney
Beatles?

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 02:48:33
Comments:

Like, I've heard of them, yeah, sure...

Name: anon
bitch!

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 02:41:31
Comments:

"Any chick that covers this has got to be alright.
stevie, my man... you hate Fiona but dig Britney?
At least, Fiona Apple writes her own songs, dammit."

At least Britney isn't trying to insult my intelligence with songs about herself and about how much she matters. If it comes down to Creed or some other rock band concerned with screaming at me about HOW MUCH THINGS MATTER (!) and Poison writing songs about fucking 17-year olds and fun with strippers...hell, I'll take Poison and Britney. At least they won't be trying to insult my intelligence.

No tantrums, no ego, just fun. Britney would never try and cover "Across the Universe," passing off some unwritten stance about how much "this paper-cup shit means to me, maaaan..."

Gimme Count Chocula anyday, over Strawberry Shortcake trying to impress me and make me think that her awful poetry is worth more than the napkin it was written on.

And I'd rather have Britney teaching my 10-year old daughter (assuming I had one) how to dress skanky, as opposed to Fiona teaching my 10 year-old daughter how to puke her peanut-butter to fit into something.

But, yeah, if Britney covered Beatles songs...

Name: Blaise
Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup..

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 02:24:42
Comments:

Any chick that covers this has got to be alright.
stevie, my man... you hate Fiona but dig Britney?
At least, Fiona Apple writes her own songs, dammit.
Or maybe you prefer Britney 'cause her reign if it should turn to hegemony, gives Jazz a chance to seem more relevant an alternative in the long run? She's a blonde poseur? She's a somewhat sexier poseur? I give up.

Trust noone, and especially not that guy. Ha!
Es gibt Warheit.

DrWu (?) - My belated expression of sorrow for your loss.

Think after the Winter comes the Spring and if all remains right, ce sera le temps du nouveau Dan. Hang in there.

Sending positive vibes to y'all...

B

Name: re: earlier comments


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 02:17:49
Comments:

from:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/24/taliban_women/print.html

In Saudi Arabia, where extremist Islam is endorsed by the ruling family, women are not allowed to drive cars. They can't rent hotel rooms. They can't work in any occupation where they have contact with men, with the exception of medicine. They are allowed an education only if their father gives them permission; if they do attend high school or college, they are segregated from men and receive their lectures via closed-circuit TV. They can't eat in a public place. If they are found on the street, they must prove that they have their male guardian's permission to be there.

Name: Its The Final Countdown
aaaaa@bbbbb

Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 01:44:51
Comments:

Clas, put down that douche water you're drinking and come clean.

Name: It's the sauce. Um, I mean, the song.


Date: Thursday, September 27, 19101 at 01:22:44
Comments:

Take it on its own terms.

Stop judging Sinatra on his alleged mob ties, um, I mean, black ties.

Name: steviedan
disagrees respectfully

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 23:31:59
Comments:

in that i feel like fiona apple is one of the biggest poseurs and worst performers EVER in popular music. i have even coined a new term for frustrated "artists" complaining about the "monitors", storming off the stage and cheating their poor audience in diva-like displays over their own inability to perform despite HYPE to the tenth power squared. i refer to those occurrences as "going fiona on them".

she succeeds very well however, at looking fashionably emaciated, drugged, & depressed and boy that sure appeals heavily to some folks. i wonder how she does it ?

that sounds cruel ? no, SHE sounds cruel.

Name: The Final Countdown
aceofbase@abba.com

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 23:29:47
Comments:

Clas, you should be getting up just about now. We're ready for you admission that your favorite band is Europe.

Name: steviedan
whether jumped, fell, or pushed...

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 23:15:50
Comments:

... from that italian hotel window, or whether or not by the same dealers that broke his teeth out almost ruining his embouchure, in life and death chet baker is a monumental figure of jazz and shame on you duncan for dissin' him. particularly his last work with the national dutch radio big band, the "last great concerts" album. that's one of the most beautiful swan songs in jazz history and one of the most poignant things i've ever heard. just so happens that i was listening to a ndr big band collection. there are no flies on their music. or chet's.

i realize now that i left out springsteen and crow in my highlights of the hero tribute. the maturity of sheryl crow's contribution really impressed me, so i guess she gets "most improved".

clas, thanks for the additional info about the monica borrfors disc. i may get to it later tonight. i was a little confused at first and thought it was monica zetterlund with a different married name. they look very similar but of course chronologically, it just wasn't making sense. my youngest daughter and i caught a program earlier featuring traditional swedish folk music. you know, fiddles and this amazing bastardized fiddle called a nyckelharpe. i thought it was wonderful but according to my daughter, it was apparently KILLING her. she prefers your quaint minstrel, max martin and his protoolsharpe.

gina, that was a cool lee konitz page, btw.

Name: µ
Green Acres of my good intentions
Location: twilight zone of zero self control,
Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 22:43:51
Comments:

Wait a minute, that''s fucking Gomer Pyle! "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." LOL

Name: Paige
paige@silcom.com

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 22:25:52
Comments:

I couldn't resist commenting on an anon's post (below) - Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 20:56:02...on the subject of trust. Extremely well written and insightful.

In addition this anon's comment concerning Fiona Apple was right on. This is one very talented artist who deserves more attention then she has received. Her music is haunting and her lyrics are rich with emotion, touching a very sensitive chord of the human condition.

-Paige

Name: StALphonzo
pat@banyantreenet.com

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 22:04:20
Comments:

GE: Received your package. Please e-mail me. Lost your e-mail address.

StAl

Name: _
_

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 21:55:36
Comments:

I don't have any long articles or answer-less questions to back this up with, and I wasn't so sure a comment like that would fit on a board like this, but I had to go off-topic.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 21:09:37
Comments:

True.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 21:09:21
Comments:

lol

Name: _
_

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 20:57:31
Comments:

Drew Zingg is pretty cool.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 20:56:02
Comments:

Well, sure. If you are trusting in the common sense of the term, you CAN be fodder for abusers. But trust in the common sense is lazyness. It is blindness become habit, ignorance become routine. If all you want to do is trust in this sense, then you will be vulnerable to cowards, and will be disrespected by the generous.

This word, "trust," has been commandeered. "Trust" is dervied from a Germanic term meaning "to comfort or console." As in not TAKING solace, but in GIVING it. In truth, it is, on the contrary, precisely when we do NOT trust in the common sense of the term that we INSPIRE in others trust in ourselves. And reasonably so, for just think what an implicit tribute to the other's strength and potential threat is a vigilance that will never abate. Talk about boosting self-esteem! "You MUST be someone whom I can rely upon if you would flatter my strength rather than my harmlessness... But more than that, WAIT!... you must also be STRONGER yourself than me to make me feel so strong..."

Hurt me once your bad, hurt me twice your bad, hurt me thrice my bad, where thrice is as many times as you have the guts (or goods) for.

Basically it's being as suspicious as you can afford to be. It is costly to be paranoid -- but on the other hand, if you can afford it, graceful paranoia is the most valuable thing on earth. Neat trick, sure.

One of my favorite tunes, reminding me of "Pretzel Logic," is Fiona Apple's "Shadowboxer." The lyrics are evocative of this theme...

Once my lover, now my friend.
What a cruel thing to pretend.
What a cunning way to condescend.
Once my lover, and now my friend.

Oh, you creep up like the clouds.
And you set my soul at ease.
Then you let your love abound.
And you bring me to my knees.

Ohhhh, its evil, babe, the way you let your
grace enrapture me.
When well you know, I'd be insane
to ever let that dirty game recapture me.

You made me a shadowboxer, baby.
I wanna be ready for what you do.
I been swinging all around me
'Cause I don't know when you're
gonna make your move.

Oh, your gaze is dangerous.
And you fill your space so sweet.
If I let you get too close
you'll set your spell on me.

So darlin' I just wanna say,
Just in case I don't come through,
I was on to every play,
I just wanted you.

But, ohhhh, it's so evil, my love, the way you've
no reverence to my concern.
So I'll be sure to stay wary of you, love,
to save the pain of
Once my flame and twice my burn.

And so I'm a shadowboxer, baby
I wanna be ready for what you do.
I been swinging all around me
'Cause I don't know when you're
gonna make your move.

Name: 1984 Again
just the facts ma'am

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 20:36:26
Comments:

1984 Has Arrived, Seventeen Years Later Than Expected - Posted Sep 26, 2001
Seventeen years later than expected, 1984 has arrived. In his address to Congress Thursday, George Bush effectively declared permanent war -- war without temporal or geographic limits; war without clear goals; war against a vaguely defined and constantly shifting enemy. Today it's Osaman Bin Laden; tomorrow it may be Afghanistan; next year, it could be Iraq or Cuba or Chechnya.

No one who was forced to read 1984 in high school could fail to hear a faint bell tinkling. In George Orwell's dreary classic, the totalitarian state of Oceania is perpetually at war with either Eurasia or Eastasia. Although the enemy changes periodically, the war is permanent; its true purpose is to control dissent and sustain dictatorship by nurturing popular fear and hatred. The permanent war undergirds every aspect of Big Brother's authoritarian program, excusing censorship, propaganda, secret police, and privation. In other words, it's terribly convenient. And conveniently terrible. Bush's alarming speech pointed to a shadowy enemy that lurks in more 60 countries, including the US.

He announced a policy of using maximum force against any individuals or nations he designates as our enemies, without color of international law, due process, or democratic debate. He explicitly warned that much of the war will be conducted in secret. He rejected negotiation as a tool of diplomacy. He announced starkly that any country that doesn't knuckle under to US demands will be regarded as an enemy. He heralded the creation of a powerful new cabinet-level police agency called the "Office of Homeland Security."

Orwell couldn't have named it better. By turns folksy ("Ya know what?") and chillingly bellicose ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists"), Bush stepped comfortably into the role of Big Brother, who needs to be loved as well as feared. Meanwhile, his administration acted swiftly to realize the governing principles of Oceania:

WAR IS PEACE. A reckless war that will likely bring about a deadly cycle of retaliation is being sold to us as the means to guarantee our safety. Meanwhile, we've been instructed to accept the permanent war as a fact of daily life. As the inevitable slaughter of innocents unfolds overseas, we are to "live our lives and hug our children."

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. "Freedom itself is under attack," Bush said, and he's right. Americans are about to lose many of their most cherished liberties in a frenzy of paranoid legislation. The government proposes to tap our phones, read our email and seize our credit card records without court order. It seeks authority to detain and deport immigrants without cause or trial. It proposes to use foreign agents to spy on American citizens. To save freedom, the warmongers intend to destroy it.

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. America's "new war" against terrorism will be fought with unprecedented secrecy, including heavy press restrictions not seen for years, the Pentagon has advised. Meanwhile, the sorry history of American imperialism -- collaboration with terrorists, bloody proxy wars against civilians, forcible replacement of democratic governments with corrupt dictatorships -- is strictly off-limits to mainstream media. Lest it weaken our resolve, we are not to be allowed to understand the reasons underlying the horrifying crimes of September 11.

The defining speech of Bush's presidency points toward an Orwellian future of endless war, expedient lies, and ubiquitous social control. But unlike 1984's doomed protagonist, we've still got plenty of space to maneuver and plenty of ways to resist. It's time to speak and to act. It falls on us now to take to the streets, bearing a clear message for the warmongers: We don't love Big Brother.

Name: The Boss
I got the news

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 19:46:57
Comments:

September 21, 2001
Bruce opened tonight's national telethon, "America: A Tribute to Heroes," with the song he played for another city last December and last month, "My City of Ruins." His acoustic guitar and harmonica were the only instruments used in the performance, but Bruce was joined by Steven Van Zandt, Patti, Clarence, and others on backing vocals in a very moving rendition. The telethon featured many musicians and actors in three different cities, with actors describing heroic efforts by ordinary people during the September 11, 2001, tragedies. With no studio audience, the musical performances took on an even more somber tone.

Sheryl Crow was interviewed on the Larry King show on Thursday night, and she told Larry that there were plans to release a benefit CD of from the telethon.

Name: jeff johnson
middlewood,nova scotia,canada

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 17:19:38
Comments:

So,(your name here) if one becomes truly trustful, aren't you fodder for unscrupulous abusers? Yes.
I try to be very trustful of people, but not of ones of whom I have lost trust in. Those instances have tainted a lifestyle that was, and for most times still is, an idyllic world where I didn't worry about locking the house when I left( I now do). I suppose I am looking for trust, but trying to inspire trust gets harder the more you practice. Odd.
Incidentally, all they took was an intricate wooden puzzle box my father made when he worked in Labrador in the forties which I know they never had the I.Q. to open. They just smashed it open for the few silver dollars in it that I had won for perfect attendance in elementary school and the like. Why didn't they take the T.V.????? It would've hurt less.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 16:01:01
Comments:

Congrats on making your first fan, buddie. Sure took a while...

K. Jaspers

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 15:54:11
Comments:

Suggestive info, thanks. I'll need to consider it for a while. Should have some additional feedback/questions by later today or tomorrow.

BTW, that was me on the trust deal. Glad someone noticed and cared. (Not that lack of notice would stop me ;-)

Hope to publish in that area in the near future. In fact am designing research -- not unrelated to my physical anthro interests -- as we speak.

On a 'humanitarian' note: We shouldnt be LOOKING to "trust" anyone. We should be looking to INSPIRE them to trust US -- the two, as I think I mentioned, are conveniently convergent. This allows you the supreme luxury of being truthful with impunity -- whether about your loss of trust in them, or anything at all. And YES, that's what we really want in trusting: a supreme luxury.

Truth is more luxurious than security, if requiring a bit more investment upfront. Though it seems "harsher" at times, this is a formula for perpetual luxury: keep your guard up, and you'll never have to take your gloves off.

"Thinking is thanking" -- Martin Heidegger

Name: TheStranger
screw it

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 15:25:41
Comments:

clas,
I sent you an answer and I believe it got accidentally zapped somehow from the guestbook. anyway, the problem is you get your information from silly places and don't seem to know how to evaluate. Many thousands of westerners have visited Saudi Arabia and have backed up what I say. Ditto with Arafat being a terrorist. He led Black September, which murdered the Israeli athletes in Munich, for example. The information is everywhere. You don't seem to know how to retrieve it or evaluate it, so these discussions lead nowhere. Until you learn how to learn, there's no sense in this.

Name: Jim#


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 15:21:38
Comments:

StAl: Before I forget. Verizon DSL is not doing altogether well on the east coast either. Sporadic is the name of the game here. Are we being conspired against? No, won't go there...

Name: jeff johnson
middlewood,nova scotia,canada

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 15:03:59
Comments:

It never fails to be interesting reading here, but the periods between reading are getting longer and any comments I would like to share become irrelevant. FOR EXAMPLE ;)

The anonymous posting regarding trust( to show trust through a lack of concern with trusting the other) was a good topic. I wish someone would have run with it. I'd also be interested in views of how to regain lost trust, something I have a great deal of trouble with. I have lost a childhood friendship because the persons kids B&E'd my house and I can't bring myself to forget it knowing that the way they were brought up was the cause.

Hermit: Re: tribute. My sentiments on the button. I also think Redemption Song was a poor choice. Some of the lines of the song were appropriate, but others just sounded strange. It's a tough job to cut-and-paste songs to different occasions. Springsteen did right.(that was a new song wasn't it?)

The feminization of the U.S.(was it narrowed down that far?) could hopefully extend to any developed nation. I don't see it as a bad thing. To me it means a more thoughtful approach to things. Mu said it best. Judge on individual merits.

It's good to see a warm welcome back to Gina. Gina, you didn't deserve all that shit for your opinion. Cooler heads do prevail.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 14:58:43
Comments:

let's see...

chestnut wavy hair, light gold color to skin. hair was platinum blonde until age 6. my age is 35 and i still maintain my natural haircolor, which is devoid of gray thus far. my iris is predominantly yellow with spires of blue. this tends to give the illusion of green eyes when taken at a distance. not a trace of brown.

facial breadth is 8. tall, warrior build, just under 3 feet sitting height. scottish heritage.

you want a blood sample?

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 14:41:46
Comments:

Hmm, well that's certainly in the Tronder range.

What's your coloring? You may use any color system including Clairol... Please include skin, hair form, hair color in childhood, current age and hair color, and a detailed description of your iris (ie, note the form and amount of any brown (include shade) speckling).

Standard facial breadths would help too. As would stature, body build and relative sitting height (ie, trunk length). Ancestry too.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 14:31:57
Comments:

how does 76 grab you? just call me mesaticephalic...

Name: Duncan
scratching head !!!

Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 14:29:44
Comments:

linda just asked are there any artists on this GB !!!

Name: Got calipers?


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 14:26:42
Comments:

Depends on the dimensions. Need a cephalic index.

Name:


Date: Wednesday, September 26, 19101 at 14:24:58
Comments:

Urals on the east, the
the country overrun by the Corded people are the Vosges on the west, the Urals on the east, the
Baltic on the north, and the Dinaric Alps on the south.49 Although these invaders were

 Name:


Date: Tuesday, September 25, 19101 at 21:53:45
Comments:

angel? devil?

Do you think some of you nice people could just give a link to all these long, long newspaper articles? May be you can find a forum about the WTC and post your thought over there.

thanks,
a Steely Dan Fan

You may not be a republican but you sure as hell are conservative and in texas, that's the same thing.

http://www.dirtybids.com/cgi-bin/item.pl?item=3352

Can't you do better than Whoreowitz?

An Enemy Within
By David Horowitz
September 19, 2001

REPRESENTATIVE BARBARA LEE, Democrat of Berkeley, was the only member of Congress who refused to defend her country under attack. The Los Angeles Times calls Barbara Lee a "liberal" and compares her to "anti-war" dissenters of the past, most notably Jeanette Rankin who cast the lone vote in the U.S. Congress against AmericaÕs entry into the Second World War and said after Pearl Harbor, "As a woman I canÕt go to war, and I refuse to send anyone else." We are at war again, and itÕs time to call things by their right names.

Barbara Lee is not an anti-war activist, she is an anti-American communist who supports AmericaÕs enemies and has actively collaborated with them in their war against America.

I met Barbara Lee when she was working in city politics in Oakland. I met her in the penthouse headquarters of Huey Newton, the infamous "Minister of Defense" for the Black Panther Party. Newton was a gangster at war with America and Barbara Lee was his undercover agent in local government.

Barbara Lee later became a staffer in the office of Democrat congressman Ron Dellums. In this capacity she committed an act of betrayal that I am unable to describe as treason only because she was never prosecuted for it. At the time, Ron Dellums was the head of the House Sub-committee on Military Installations. In this capacity, he had top security clearance and carried on a one-man campaign to thwart the foreign policy of the United States in regard to the Communist dictatorship of Grenada.

U.S. security officials had identified the Communist dictatorship as a threat because of the presence of large numbers of Soviet bloc advisers and their ongoing construction of an airport that could be used for Soviet military planes. As the ranking Democrat member of the House Armed Services Committee, Dellums went to Grenada to conduct his own fact-finding tour. On his return he testified before the House Subcommittee on Inter-American Affairs that "based on my personal observations, discussion and analysis of the new international airport under construction in Grenada, it is my conclusion that this project is specifically now and has always been for the purpose of economic development and is not for military useÉ. It is my thought that it is absurd, patronizing and totally unwarranted for the United States Government to charge that this airport poses a military threat to the United StatesÕ national security."

What legislators did not know at the time was that Dellums had previously submitted his report on the airport to the Communist dictator of Grenada for his prior approval, and subject to any changes he or his military advisers chose to make. In other words, Dellums acted as an agent of the Communist enemy in abetting his hostile designs against the United States. His emissary in this act of betrayal was Barbara Lee.

We know this from government documents retrieved by US marines after Grenada was liberated by U.S. forces. One document was a love-letter from DellumsÕ chief of staff, Carlottia Scott (recent political issues director of the Demcoratic National Committee) to the Grenadian dictator himself, Maurice Bishop. In the letter Carlottia Scott wrote: "Ron [Dellums] has become truly committed to Grenada, and has some positive political thinking to share with youÉ. HeÕs really hooked on you and Grenada and doesnÕt want anything to happen to building the Revolution and making it strong. He really admires you as a person and even more so as a leader with courage and foresight, principles and integrityÉ. The only other person that I know of that he expresses such admiration for is Fidel."

Another document liberated by the marines contained the minutes of a Politburo meeting attended by the Communist dictator and his military command. "Barbara Lee is here presently and has brought with her a report on the international airport that was done by Ron Dellums. They have requested that we look at the document and suggest any changes we deem necessary. They will be willing to make the changes."

If this is not treason, what is?

1. David Corn has as much legitimacy as a reporter as Rush Limbaugh. Wouldn't believe a word from either of 'em.

2. I am not a Republican nor do I plan to be

3. We all condemn heinous INDIVIDUAL acts in response to the tragedy on 9/11. Falwell is an idiot.

4. I think you need not look further than this guestbook - Yeah, I'd LOVE to see a surge of patriotism by ...in fact I'm overjoyed to see fezo defending the Constitution (or at least some of it!)

5. Save your venom for the terrorists.

...no innanet?

Unity is a Two Way Street
September 24, 2001
by John Emerson

During this crisis we've been hearing a lot about "unity" and supporting the President. So okay, let's have unity. Who are the enemies of unity?

When Bin Laden or whoever it was wanted to hit America where it hurt, they attacked New York City. The constituents of Jesse Helms, Trent Lott, Dick Armey, and Helen Chenoweth were safe. That's why President Bush was sent to Nebraska.

The Republicans talk a lot bout the "Heartland" and "real Americans" - in contrast to "you people" (Democrats). Our little friend Andrew Sullivan just suggested that the "blue areas" form a disloyal fifth column in the war against terrorism.

But it isn't the liberal Democrats that are saying that Bin Laden was an instrument of God, punishing the U.S for its sins. It's Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson - pillars of the Republican party and big George W. Bush supporters. For years the Christian right has been talking about New York and California falling into the sea, and they weren't kidding. Like Bin Laden, they want New York to disappear.

It wasn't liberals who took a cake and a Bible to the Ayatollah. It wasn't liberals who sympathized with the Ayatollah's death sentence on impious Salman Rushdie.

The man responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, Timothy McVeigh, wasn't a liberal. The Congresswoman who said "Now maybe people will listen" when she heard about this bombing wasn't a liberal either; it was Idaho's Republican representative Helen Chenoweth. (It was in Idaho that Claude Dallas became a local hero by killing two federal agents).

It isn't liberals who have published a death threat against George W. Bush (together with most of the Supreme Court). It's the anti-abortion terrorists of the Nuremberg Files. Anti-abortion terrorists have killed at least a dozen people in recent years, but you never hear them called that in the media. You hear a lot about "eco-terrorists" though.

It was Jesse Helms (R, NC) who relayed a military death threat against President Clinton: "If he visits the military bases down here, he should bring a bodyguard." There were no consequences for Sen. Helms - he was just kidding (what a funny guy!)

The Republicans did not support any of President Clinton's military actions: "I can support the troops without supporting the President." (Trent Lott)

And when it looked like Gore might win the election, it was the conservative Bill Kristol who stated his intention of refusing to acknowledge his legitimacy. But when George W. Bush won, we were all supposed to roll over for unity's sake.

I think we can safely conclude that the main source of disunity in this country is the vehement, unremitting, and sometimes quite murderous hatred of conservatives for liberals. But there is an even deeper layer to this. The swing voter in the 5-4 Supreme Court ruling awarding the Presidency, Anthony Kennedy, finally made his decision because he feared that a protracted recount and legal struggle would lead to civil disorder. Since he didn't fear any that any disorder would arise if the Presidency was awarded to Bush, obviously it was the Republican goon squads who decided the question. Is this democracy?

So anyway, I'm in favor of unity. I expect a war and I don't expect a short war (I hope I'm wrong!). Where are we going to get this unity?

First, Bush is going to have to get rid of quite a few of his friends. He actually has made a nice start in distancing himself from Falwell and Robertson, but he must be held to this. And since these men and their believers have been an integral part of the Republican party for twenty or more years now, he's going to have to form some new alliances.

Second, he's going to have to drop all agendas not directly related to the present crisis. His attempt to use his tainted paper-thin victory to ram through a right-wing agenda was questionable from the beginning. Now it is unconscionable. On September 11 Bush dropped his international unilateralism almost instantly. In the same way, he is going to have to drop his domestic right-wing agenda, and really become the moderate he was pretending to be.

Third, Bush's handlers are going to have to understand that our agreement to pretend that Bush is competent to be President is based on loyalty and is not to be taken literally. We should make contact with the rational members of his inner circle (Colin Powell is the only one I can think of) and explain that our agreement to support him is conditional on his being kept under control by his handlers.

Frankly, I don't think that this will be as hard as it sounds. Even the most reactionary Republicans must be terrified by the prospect of having GWB's hands on the controls in a time like this (though of course, as with Reagan, many of them are probably also tempted by the power they can gain if they get control of GWB's mind.

A final thought on Unity. If President Bush actually believes in Unity, he should make a speech stating loud and clear that, for him, New York City (and even San francisco!) is also a part of the Heartland.

The end of liberty
Law enforcement officials are taking advantage of the war on terrorism to get everything they ever wanted.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Damien Cave and Katharine Mieszkowski

Sept. 22, 2001 | Northwest Airlines kicked three Arab-American men off a flight from Minneapolis to Philadelphia Friday, simply because other passengers refused to fly on the same plane with them. The airline defended removing the men from the plane, saying that security rules gave it permission to "reaccommodate" passengers. The Council on American-Islamic Relations reacted immediately: "This is racial and religious profiling of the worst kind. Both the passengers and the airplane personnel should be ashamed of their actions."

Even as Arab-Americans face daily affronts to their civil liberties, Congress is crafting new legislation to further limit their freedoms -- and everyone else's. And while there is some dissent being expressed behind closed doors in Congress, an "anti-terrorism" bill is expected to be formally introduced next week. Given the current climate of fear and anger, most observers expect easy passage.

The process started last Sunday after the Bush administration and congressional leaders met and agreed to come up with drafts of an anti-terrorism act. By Wednesday, two draft bills had been released. One came directly from the Department of Justice; the other was from Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt. The two bills share many provisions. Among them: extending more aid to victims of terrorism; allowing for so-called "roving wiretaps"; and giving law enforcement access to previously off-limits education records. Now, legislators are at work crafting the two draft bills into one proposal that could be introduced next week, but there are some policy differences between the two bills.

"The immigration proposal and the wiretap proposal are two points where differences remain," says David Carle, a Leahy spokesman.

The Department of Justice's bill introduces a host of surveillance and detention measures that have been immediately denounced by civil libertarians. The proposal includes intrusions on e-mail privacy, extensions of the government's ability to use information gathered by dubious means (such as torture) and the relaxation of safeguards against intrusive government surveillance.

Some critics are accusing the Justice Department of taking opportunistic advantage of the national security crisis to push aside the judicial checks and balances that hold law enforcement accountable.

"The politics of this is: Let's try to get our wish-list passed in the name of preventing terrorism, because Congress is unusually receptive right now," says Mike Godwin, policy fellow at the Center for Democracy and Technology. "It's a Department of Justice bill written by career Justice people who have a longstanding agenda and see the opportunity to put things in that they have always wanted to have."

The proposals causing the greatest outcry focus on immigration. One section would allow immigrants to be detained indefinitely without being charged with a crime or appearing before a judge. Under present law, an immigration judge determines whether the government case against a suspect is good enough to justify holding him or her, but if the DOJ bill becomes law, the prosecutor would be judge, jury and jailer.

"These actions offend the Constitution and are an affront to the millions of law-abiding immigrants in our country as well as the millions of other citizens who are sons and daughters of immigrants," says Anthony Romero, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU has been joined by a motley crew of more than 150 organizations both liberal and conservative. Everyone from Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum to the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee has pledged to work with Congress to rein in the attack on civil liberties.

Congressional leaders from both parties also objected to the prospect of detaining immigrants indefinitely. "It allows the INS to hold immigrants until the attorney general is convinced that they're not a threat," says Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. This could take a week, a month or years, but the problem is that it's subjective. "It goes much further than any other immigration law -- possibly too far."

Earlier this week, Attorney General John Ashcroft wrote an order doubling the amount of time -- from 24 hours to 48 hours -- that an immigrant could be detained by INS officials without going before a judge. Congress did not demur.

But indefinite detainment goes too far, according to some immigration experts. "Limits should be applied," says Doris Meissner, a former INS commissioner. "There should be a statute change that allows for more flexibility of detention, but this plan seems to be too open-ended. The timing issue is purely subjective, but a week seems long enough and at two weeks I'd start to be concerned."

And even with two weeks allotted, a judge could still extend the deadline. Meissner points out that laws passed after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing already gave the government more power to hold immigrants and make a case against terrorists. "My overall impression is that by and large the government has plenty of authority already to do what they need to do."

For example, Meissner notes that under current law, the government can already use so-called "secret evidence" to deport or detain a defendant, without publicly disclosing its evidence to the defendant or his attorney. A judge then decides whether the evidence justifies punishment.

Provisions in the new bills extend the range of people who could be prosecuted with these already established weapons. The immigration provisions of the Justice Department bill also attempt to broaden the definition of terrorist activity, amending the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 to allow law enforcement to detain not just terrorists, but anyone affiliated with terrorist organizations -- or organizations that are found to offer "material support," such as a safe house, transportation, communications, funds, false documentation or weapons. You could be arrested as a "terrorist" just for giving money to your mosque.

"People are raising an eyebrow about the parts of the plan that expand the definition of terrorism," says Angela Kelley, deputy director of the National Immigration Forum, a pro-immigrant advocacy group. "The attorney general's bill expects people to know that whatever groups they associate with could be connected to other terrorist organizations. There's a concern that the onus is too broad."

Immigration law is just one front in the new law enforcement assault on civil liberties. Long sought-after expansions in wiretapping permissions are also part of both bills.

The Justice Department bill extends telephone wiretapping law to e-mail, without taking into account distinctions between the two mediums. Under current wiretap law, according to Godwin of the Center for Democracy and Technology, if law enforcement wanted to conduct a full-fledged wiretap of a phone, officials had to convince a judge that they had exhausted other options.

However, the standard is much lower when law enforcement is seeking to know what phone numbers a person has called and received calls from. While a judge must certify such requests, the procedure is effectively a rubber stamp. All a prosecutor has to do is fill out a form, and the judge must comply.

Under the proposed new law, the header information in e-mail messages would be treated under the same standard as phone number information. "They're equating the telephone number that was called with the header information on an e-mail," says Steele.

"Your name, your e-mail address, the IP address that you used, the IP address that your message bounced from, the time you sent it, the time you received it, the subject line -- these are all things that are very revealing," says Godwin.

Sen. Leahy's bill would temper the Department of Justice bill on this point, requiring law enforcement to prove the relevance of e-mail surveillance to a specific case. It's a question of "how is this relevant," says a Leahy legislative aide. "Right now, a judge is not authorized to ask that question."

Other proposals in the bills seem to have little relevance to the fight against terrorism. For example, the Department of Justice bill proposed establishing a DNA database for every person convicted of any felony or certain sex offenses.

"It's not going to make a big difference on terrorism," said Shari Steele, executive director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, noting that previous attempts to pass such a proposal that have been struck down. "The only way that it would is if the terrorists that they're seeking happen to be convicted felons, [but] that doesn't fit the [normal] profile of terrorists."

Under the Department of Justice legislation intelligence agencies would be able to more freely exchange information. Sen. Leahy and Rep. Barney Frank want to impose limits on how much sharing can take place. "The J. Edgar Hoover experience showed us what can happen when law enforcement shares information that isn't vital to security but is embarrassing," says Frank.

The Department of Justice bill also extends the sharing of information to evidence collected by foreign intelligence sources, even if that information was gathered in violation of the Fourth Amendment. Illegal search and seizure to obtain evidence, as long as it is not performed by U.S. officials, would no longer be a reason to dismiss evidence, thus opening the door to U.S. law enforcement agencies' taking advantage of evidence obtained by torture in foreign countries.

Both bills agree on the necessity for "roving wiretaps," which give law enforcement greater latitude in listening in. "Under an ordinary wiretap you have to specify the location where you are doing surveillance," says Lee Tien, senior staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "If it turns out the person has gone somewhere else you need to apply for another intercept order. A roving wiretap sets up a situation where you don't have to seek additional court authorization for each location's telephone line."

The changes in wiretapping law are in addition to the extension of wiretap law already approved by the Senate last week in a bill called the Combating Terrorism Act of 2001. That bill allows authorities to survey, without a warrant, the Web sites a person has visited and the names and addresses in e-mail over a 48-hour period.

Some experts don't think the proposals are as egregious as they sound to civil libertarians. One legal scholar who worked for the INS under Meissner argues that the expanded powers of the Anti-Terrorism Act must be seen in the context of the largest terrorist attack ever on American soil.

"The proposals give the government a broader range of power," says David A. Martin, a law professor at University of Virginia who worked as head counsel for INS from 1995 to 1998. "We're still not rolling out the full array of measures that could limit the freedom of aliens."

"It's not surprising that they're looking for broader measures of law enforcement. But the bill shows that they're really struggling with how to deal with real threats and still maintain civil liberties. They're trying to craft it with some protections left."

For example, the government may be allowed to hold legal and illegal immigrants without facing an immigration judge, but defendants haven't completely given up their right to a trial.

"You do still have access to the District Court in the District of Columbia," Martin says. "So if you're a legal alien, say with a student visa, and you've been held for a few weeks without any sign of being deported or moved through the system, you could go to court and a judge could rule that your detainment was against the Constitution."

The government could have removed this provision, or added others that fall within the lines of constitutional law, suggests Martin, who also noted that it would be possible -- and constitutional -- to write legislation that gives the INS the right to deport every alien. Students with visas, people waiting for asylum decisions, immigrants tending to sick family members -- "anyone who isn't a lawful permanent resident could be told to leave," Martin says. "It would be a classic wartime maneuver. A law that allows [such restrictions during wartime] has been on the books for hundreds of years."

The Justice Department's decision not to ask for such sweeping changes shows a measure of moderation, Martin says. "There are far more sweeping things that haven't been done but that could be done. I think we need to keep that in mind."

But Martin's point of view is not shared by critics who fear that legislators will vote to pass the new bill without thinking through the long-term implications. For example, neither of the proposed laws includes a so-called "sunset" provision, which would allow the new measures to expire after a set time period. Juliette Kayyem, the executive director of the Executive Session on Domestic Preparedness at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, says: "A lot of senators and representatives have huge problems with this. They don't want to be on record opposing legislation that was in the wake of this disastrous event. They've been urging for more time."

Did We Handcuff the CIA?
The national security hawks say yes. The CIA says no.
By David Corn

Tuesday, Sept. 18, 2001, at 12:30 p.m. PT

Before the remains of the World Trade Center had even cooled,
national security hawks took to the airwaves to blame CIA
reforms for the failure of the intelligence community to
detect and prevent the attack.

"We were basically spying with one arm tied behind our back,"
said R. James Woolsey, CIA chief in the early 1990s, on CNN's
Late Edition With Wolf Blitzer, citing 1995 CIA guidelines
that regulate the recruitment of sources who have a history
of criminal activity and human-rights violations. "These
restrictive limitations on not being able to recruit people
who have some violence in their past as spies were
ridiculous."

On Crossfire, Woolsey claimed these regulations "make it
difficult to penetrate terrorists. ... It's like telling the
FBI to penetrate the Mafia without putting any criminals on
its payrolls." Ambassador Paul Bremer, who chaired a national
commission on terrorism, chimed in, telling CNN that the
Church Committee, the Senate panel that investigated CIA
misdeeds in the 1970s, did "a lot of damage to our
intelligence services. ... And the more recent problem was
that the previous administration put into effect guidelines
which restricted the ability of CIA agents to go after ...
terrorist spies." President George Bush the First, a past CIA
chief, and Vice President Dick Cheney concurred. Sen. Richard
Shelby of Alabama, the ranking Republican on the intelligence
committee, blasted the regulations and demanded that the
country "take the wraps off" the spies.

The Senate took steps to do just that last Thursday by passing
"The Combating Terrorism Act of 2001," part of which
instructs the CIA to rescind the 1995 guidelines. But despite
all the vamping, removing the guidelines won't help the
United States wage its new war on terrorism. And there's no
indication the CIA even wants the rules lifted.

The 1995 guidelines were written after the press revealed that
a thuggish Guatemalan military official, who had been
involved in the murder of an American hotelier and the
torture and murder of a rebel leader married to an American,
was on the CIA payroll. (By the way, the agency had withheld
information from Congress about its relationship with this
killer.) The guidelines have never been made public, but CIA
officials have described them to Hill staffers and
intelligence-watchers. The rules compel CIA case officers to
notify headquarters when they recruit a violent brute as a
source, and they require the recruitment be reviewed at a
senior level. But they don't prohibit the CIA from working
with terrorists to discover what terrorists are doing. CIA
case officers are free to seek and pay informants within
terrorist outfits. They merely have to alert supervisors back
home and receive a go-ahead.

"The fuss about these guidelines is totally a bunch of hooey,"
says one government employee familiar with the rules (who
cannot be identified any further). "They do not forbid
anything."

In June 2000, CIA spokesman Bill Harlow denied that the
guidelines unduly restricted the agency: "The notion that our
human rights guidelines are an impediment to fighting
terrorism is simply wrong. No one knows better than we do
that when combating terrorism it is often necessary to deal
with unsavory individuals. But we do so with eyes wide open
and appropriate notification to senior officials."

Harlow noted that the CIA has "never, ever turned down a
request to use someone, even someone with a record of human
rights abuses, if we thought that person could be valuable in
our overall counterterrorism program." Last year, the CIA did
not back an effort in Congress to kill these rules, which can
be rescinded by the CIA director or the president without the
passage of legislation.

While the hawks argue the guidelines discourage risk-taking in
the field, the rules may well enhance derring-do. A case
officer who recruits a terrorist as a source under the
guidelines is protected from a reprimand from above if the
terrorist takes part in, say, a bombing plot.

Penetrations of tightly knit secret organizations, a task that
the agency has never done well, won't be improved by erasing
the guidelines. Those who blame the current crisis on
intelligence reformers deceive the public by falsely raising
expectationsÑjust get rid of these pesky rules, and the CIA
will be inside Osama Bin Laden's tent. And, more importantly,
all their huffing distracts the nation from the actual
intelligence failures that preceded Sept. 11.

I couldn't get back in. I just kept waiting for the "chatspace java client is still loading. Please wait..." message to stop flashing... passed out, woke up, made some tea, went outside, took a walk, raised a family... damn thing just kept flashing...

This is a time of hysteria and a time of resolve. We all feel some of both inside. Fortunately, most people I know personally and have seen in NYC have demonstrated the latter in action. It is not a time for ideological and irrational extrapolation, which was my point. Tighter airport security is desired across the board. I mean, what does it take, a nuke on an America West flight? You may certainly drive or walk or bike or do business on-line or by e-mail if the added delays are a bother. Then we're mixing local laws (zoning) with the Constitution??? Houston, for instance, has no zoning laws.

Also, there are no "those people" only we the people - Condit, Clinton, Bush, Powell, Rice, Gephardt all see it the same way. national security is a priority. Believe me, we'll see reasoned and carefully proportioned tightening mostly at airports and our borders and dealing with illegal aliens. I truly don't anticipate INF agent breaking into citizens houses with AK-47s or sniper assault on pregnant women or burning down domiciles with women and children...anymore...

The grief and sorrow and rage and fear and conern about our citizens overseas initiated by the terrorists, not our guys, have been the primary effect on our lives. How are airport security checks that work instead of being asked "Did you let someone else pack your bag? "Oh, you got me. I surrender!" illegal search and seizure?

If this war turns out only to be "inconvenient," then we should count ourselves LUCKY...

This is a time to unite. Join the rest of we 92%. We'd be proud to have you on our side. That doesn't mean that opinions cannot be expressed. But think through them first.

Here, I'll start. Should federal troops be used at our borders for security?

My take. National security is a priority, but the military's role is of direct protection against mass invasion or fighting our mortal enemies and killing them outside our borders. Since I don't anticipate an "invasion" as bin Laden has only 3500 men, the federal role should be in training and assistance of local authorities with the proper agencies (INF) against individuals or "cells" moving into place for more attacks.

Principle and example: Our soldiers should NEVER be used as police officers pointing and shooting weapons at our citizens or innocent civilians from neighboring countries not at war, especially outside the scope of a military defense or assault. This falls under misuse of federal executive power just as Nixon misused the FBI and CIA in his paranoia to stop deep throat and squelch his enemies.

Gratuitous commentary: The aftermath was long string of events that started as a backlash against the CIA and later a the foolish assumption that the world was safe after the cold war, has ensured the current operation against bin Laden and other terrorists will be a long and difficult one.

tawk amongst yahselves...

Citizen, Have you registered with the
Office of Homeland Security yet?

If not, you will not be entitled to participate in the American way of life. No food, no water, no utilities, no phone, no internet.

Won't this be a lonely place then?

Privacy schmivacy... who needs it? If you got something to hide, tough shit.

chat with dif

9:22 PM EST

hey Mu, doesn't even your copy of the Bill of Rights specifically mention something about protection against "unreasonable" searches and seizures?

do we really want to give Ashcroft the power to ignore the Constitution just in the hopes of catching the people he couldn't catch even when the FBI and FAA were already warned about the nature of the threat and even the identity of some of the specific individuals involved?

I still haven't determined whether I can make it to New Orleans for the Tipitina's performance by The Steely Damned. I did just check the American Airlines website and round trip tickets from LA are being sold for $201. I'm thinking that I can help the airlines fill their seats, book a hotel room and otherwise assist the tourist industry, go to New Orleans which is always fun, do a little bit to return to "normality" AND satisfy a Steely Dan/Damned jones that always needs scratching. Some of this may depends on how many other GBers are gonna show up.

Man, this room's getting tense.

When the hell does the bar open?

Later,

Herm

Who's obssesed with Clas here? Who's at metallica.com?
Who else would know the King of Sweden by name?
I don't know... could it be... Lars Ulrich?!

I don't plan on getting called on the carpet for anything. But you are right, Clas is a perfect representative of "his country" He has proven his cowardace and stupidity over and over again. And the current King of Sweden Gustav is the same way as Clas Hanging out at the Gold Club instead of making reparations to the victims of the Nazis who were harbored by the Swedes. The only difference between Clas and the current King is that the current King is not talking down America as if this country somehow deserved the terrorists because of its Zionist policies. The King at least is throwing back some cocktails and getting a Lap dance.

Anon judge, how could YOU ever be "called on the carpet" for anything anyway? Let's talk justice indeed.
I don't know who the current king of Sweden is exactly either but I think Clas has the needed etoffe to represent the Swedish people better than anyone out there, obviously. He's already a spokesperson for his people de facto hanging out on the Internet@work like that.
We've seen the last of Good Whatever
Raise up your glass to Good King Clas
I say

Coupled with the fact that his no-talent, Berklee-flunk-out (now there's a joke!) son is porking some Palestinian camel-jockey twat.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

phew! okay, this means i may be in chat later if anyone is around, which is not a good thing becasue it means i am here again!!!!!!!!!!!

wishing i really was a dog catcher.......

"Lars" XVI, XII is quibbling with the details. What "you" cannot deny is that 300 years ago the savage people of Sweden sought and were denied world domination at Poltava and that during WWII Sweden collaborated with the Nazis and contributed to the whole impetus for the creation of Israel and displacement of Palestine. Now, Clas feels guilty about all this, so in an effort to assuage his conscience, he has spent a considerable effort trying to tear down America and promote "pro-palestinia" He can espouse these views if he wants. But he's going to get "called on the carpet" for his motivation.

nmn: i can always count on you to boost the ole ego

what happened on b&b, ms/mr anon?

lp, you're so hot when you define your terms

luv it luv it luvit

these babies create such bullshit... school for women is all they really are... and dopes like eric pay for it

Greetings America and Beyond!

The Steely Fan Band sends out best wishes and our condolences to everyone that lost loved one's on September 11,2001. As we try to get back to living our lives as normal as possible we hope that our music can help you out!

We will be back out on the road again in two weeks for a performance that will bring a smile to your face. Please join us on Sunday, October 7,2001 at the Old Town Fair in Manhattan Beach, Ca. The Address is 1901 Valley Drive at Live Oak Park in the city of Manhattan Beach. Showtime is 2:00pm

Thank You all .
God Bless America.
Steely Fan Band-A Tribute To Steely Dan

hey there mu:

by land grab - i meant more local regulation, as in zoning, the stuff that really affects you (taking your dog away, as it were, with a net) - many parts of the country still consider zoning unconstitutional, many national parks service workers get threatened in the western states, go figure - so my comment was that usually the people here in my community i serve want control in this manner, but now, they don't want any - odd, it's going to be rough town meeting this fall

by privatization, there was alot of conservatives talking through the last decade that government should not run our airports, trains, and buses, and should be run through the private enterprise - and now these same people want to FEDERALIZE them

observations of a phenomenon

phenomenon, ah diggy diggy, phenomenon, de de de dee.....

lp: ??? Perhaps you're mixing Clinton-era liberals (of which Clinton participated in only about 50% of the time - within ruler distance from Hillary?) and libertarians. Libertarians and Republicans opposed the Federal "land-grab" in the Western half of the country during the last administration. As far as I know, the only move to Federalize a private sector agency concerns airline safety. We all joked about it, but the banning of songs, flags lapel buttons, phrases found on dollar bills have not been conducted by either party, but by PC companies including ABC-Disney. They're running from Bill Maher faster than a hooker towards a Pfizer convention...

Democrats on the hill as are most Americans wish to implement tighter security including federal agents, skycaps, etc. Pain in the butt does not equal Bill of Rights impingement. I can't find the word "convenience" anywhere in the Constitution, can you?

One of the latest strategies, if I'm reading the tea leaves right seems to be lulling the Taliban into thinking they are not a target. Although we do not recognize their legitimacy as all other nations now save one, as even the Pakistanis have withdrawn their ambassadors, we want bin Laden, the Taliban, and Iraq in a confused state. Don't look for Peter Arnett hangin' outside Kabul in the mountains anytime soon. We could use Al Franken with a satellite dish on his head about now...

Did anybody Jon Stewart's monologue perspective on freedom last night on CC? Understandably slobbery but outstanding. He said that his view from his apartment used to be the World Trade Center. Now they're gone. But now the view is of the Statue of Liberty. That says it all...

Brother in tears,
look at this chain of sorrow
Stretching all the way from here and now to hell and gone
It's "Operation Enduring Freedom"...
sure...
"and together we'll ENDURE the tyranny of the disallowed"...

lp have another drink.

Midnite C.

I knew I forgot something
wishing you a speedy recovery
I had 4 wisdom teeth out when I was 20
and I was out cold for 2 days after

that tape is good , I'm sure there are better generation copies out there but it's very nice

I really enjoyed "Home at Last" that arrangement with the sinister new horn arrangement and lick trading was real nice.
It's real funny when Donald acknowledges Ari Ambrose after a lenghty Cornelius Bumpus solo

cheers

wormy

for the media and me!

.....and you people mock me, as the resident dog catcher - pffttt!.....

I am paid $12,000 a month to come up with terms like Operation Enduring Freedom and I am worth every penny. Bush wanted to call it Oparetion Amalo (for Alamo).

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld
announced that the new name for the anti-terrorist
operation is: "Operation Enduring Freedom."

clas,
these discussions with you go nowhere because you have basically no knowledge. you talk to one guy on the phone and you believe him. but you wouldn't even have to leave your chair to find out about the vicious discrimination practiced in saudi arabia against women and non-muslim worship. about the utter lack of democracy. you see, lots of people have been there and written about it. journalists, professors, intelligence agents, diplomats. it's not a closed country. there's information everywhere. same with arafat. he was head of black september, for instance. those are the people who murdered the israeli athletes in munich. just one instance. but there's no sense telling you anything because your lack of knowledge stems from the fact you don't really want to know and you can't seem to evaluate information intelligently. either try to learn something before you say anything or shut up.

clas: i especially liked the dandom tribute, hoops will like it i'm sure - the pencil work is excellent, too, you should do more of that

the strange but intriguing backlash (not the right word) to the events happening here is this self-contradictory movement to either federalizing everything (i thought republicans wanted to privatize all infrastructure and transportation?) and at the same time a push for libertarianism from the more liberal folk - every amendment affecting land use policy i'm working on has been met with cries of "property rights, don't touch my property rights" from people who usually want to control everything - search me, the world's a little crazy at the local and federal level as far as i can see and the state level is stuck in the middle again - so search me, man, no wait, don't!

life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - sigh
i get that image of the guy in 1700's garb chasing the woman in similar period female attire across the tv screen - remember abc's history rock? they should play that again, they are great fun - it's scary how many of them i memorized

get your adverbs here

Lars - why does he call him Charles? When his name is Cal-Gustav?

---

Some new stuff is up at a Steely Dan Gallery:

http://www.ateljelundkvist.se/galleri/

C

Clas.....(5 dots) Do you support the Towel-iban?

Angel....the root canal was NOT by choice, believe me. It feels better today though, no more throbbing. Thanks for asking though.

wormTom....thanks for the info on the '96 VHS. I feel a little better about buying it now. I also got it from eBay. Hope it arrives by this weekend. Should bring back some nice memories from the '96 tour.

almost chilly here in southside Virginia this morning....I like it! this is my absolute favorite time of year.

time to run a few errands....y'all have a good day.

MC

Salem, Massachusetts

Gimme some horses ass on a silver platter and feed it to me while I imagine Glenn Miller's Orchestra play a phantom rendition of Do It Again. Why pick on Clas, pick on me, I'm from Masachusetts. The Gibb Brothers once dedicated a song to sweet Masachusetts so there's got to be something wrong with it.

Clas = ASSHOLE!

Wormy: My copy of the Jones Beach '00 video is great! I guess you got a bad one. That's what happens when your dealing in bootlegs.

I would love to go to New Orleans for The Steely Damned. The only problem is that Oct. 23 is a Tuesday. Now that's a bummer! If it were a Fri. or Sat. I'd be there in a flash!

wormski--got the Dylan disc. If you've seen him live over the past few years it will sound familiar--sort of a 50s country sound, a little rockabilly. Songs are a nice bag of Dylan tricks, mostly blues, very funny lyrics that trap the listener in his/her own expectations again and again. Not a bad soundtrack for an unsettled time.

Dr. Wu--so sad...best wishes and warm thoughts

Midnite Cruiser - hey Jim
talk about coincidence

I just received a copy of the very same Manassas 96 video via e-bay, guess what I was watching last night?

The source of this video is multicamera proshot with interesting video fade ins etc. This appears to be the source for overhead screens at the venue. The version I have has the same cover so likely they are the same source. The audio quality is very good and the video is good, but shows some signs of multi generation copying. The flaws are small (some fuzziness, bright light bleeding edges) but don't detract too much, they are probably a little accentuated being played back on a 36" screen tv here. All in all, well worth the investment.

In contrast I have a video of the Jones Beach 01 show that is a single camcorder shot show that is awful sound and video, well worth staying away from.

anyone have Dylan's new disc yet?
Suzanne Vega's SOngs in REd and Grey hits the stores today,
a nice outing.

Jim # - glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Plush 5.1 sound is distracting. It sounds great on my two channel setup

and yes STEELY DAMNED OCT 23 Tipitinas New Orleans
hotel and airline rates are lowering
come down to New Orleans for a fun time on the Bayou
STEELY DAMNED OCT 23

hey you - yes you anon who braggs about your Swedish historical knowledge - Charles XVI (Gustaf) is our present king and to my knowledge he wasn't at Poltava at the same time as Charles XII was (man, it was almost 300 years ago!). Try to learn something before you teach your stupidity.

Mr. Mouth = Nice Try Clas - get back to the TV-set, you're friends are guesting Ricki Lake. Todays theme is ÓI am screwing my best friends wife.Ó

C

All this King Gustav crap is reminding me of a book I wrote. "Freddy's Book".

Wow, it's not so bad to be a dead author. Well, if not for the devil to deal with...

Watching out for Reindeer Racks,

John "Grendel" Gardner

(Sung to the tune of "Have You Ever Been Mellow").

Clas--Do you ever think about what you write before you write it? Have you ever tried? To get at the truth from somewhere else but inside? Have you ever been happy? Do you even feel? Do you wonder what it's like to be real?

I love Arabs and Muslims. I hate Clas. The pattern of silence to which I was referring was your pattern over the course of the last couple of days. Have you been asleep that whole time? Of course not. Then again, you've never been out before and, of course, you have no clue of your own history. You have no idea who Charles XVI was even though he was the "greatest" Swedish king in history. Of course that is probably due to Swedish national denial of its past and adoption of "neutrality" as a face saving measure resulting from the foiled attempt (Poltava, Clas, it's your national identity, learn it, love it) to rule the world. Clas, admit it, you are just spouting off "pro-palestinia" nonsense because you feel guilty for the Swedes having collaborated with the Nazis and having created the conditions for the creation of Israel thereby displacing the Palestinians. There's no Coors here, Clas buddy, I don't drink right wing beer. When I drink beer its Anchor Steam, a nice liberal beer from San Francisco. When I drink hard liquor, it's at the Gold Club with good king Gustav.

And more information; almost 40% of the companies in Saudi Arabia are owned by woman. And they are studying at schools, universitys, and they are... working.

Damn, doesn't it feel good when you get info directly from the horse's mouth?

C

Clas is a funny guy - ÓNotice the deafening silence coming from Clas?Ó Please man, I am sleeping at nights, or at least, I am trying to get some sleep at nights. That means; the world is a globe, and while your eating popcorn and drinking Coors and watching Ricki Lake in your 5-dollar trailer parked in north Florida, Europe's sleeping with the shade on the lights.

Get it?

And no, Nebraska isn't another country, it's a state in USA.

C

Should be Ófeeling guiltÓ?

wt - thanks for the clarification. Damn, I've been wondering.

---

the Stranger - well, I BELIEVE the guy at the Saudi Arabian Embassy.

And I am probably having guilt for a lot of things in my life, but not for being a white European man. Here's a web-site for you:

http://www.fib.se/saudiara.html

An excellent article from the Swedish photographer Gun Kessle, she says:

ÓI didn't se any Arabian Princes say their prayers at their Rolls Royces and swimingpools, but I saw modern woman, and I heard them talk about education etc etc...Ó

Go read.

You'll get another picture of those Óbrown fucksÓ you hate so much, and isn't fucking unbelievable; the word ÓsemiteÓ means ÓarabÓ. For you it's all black and white, bad guys and good guys, rule or being ruled. That's so sad.

And if Arafat was a terrorist, do you think Sten Andersson would socialize with him? No way man.

C

Notice the deafening silence coming from Clas? He is totally unprepared to deal with his own medicine. Make no mistake about it, Clas is afraid to deal with someone who knows much more than he does about Swedish history and its relationship to today's events. Clas is afraid that the historical reasons for his "pro-palestinia" are being exposed and his strategy is to ingore this exposure in the hopes it will go away. But it won't Clas. I am on a personal mission to expose the reasons for the repugnant behavior you have repeatedly demonstrated on this guestbook. So, Clas if you've never been out before, you are about to be out now.

enimen,
Thanks much.

JW Malibu,
It's hard to believe that these lowdown virus fucks are trying to trap people into destroying their computers by beckoning to them with peace or patriotism. what do they do the rest of the time? drown orphans? I had a computer destroyed by a virus and personally I would hang those bastards after an exceedingly short trial.

LP: We must have just missed each other. I was in chat around 8:07P and no one was there, so I left. :-(

St. Al: I know it is a few days late, but Happy Birthday to Stella Rae.

Midnight Cruiser: On they day of layoffs, you get a root canal? Glutton for punishment, I guess.

Dr. Wu band members. I am sorry to hear about your loss.

chat? nobody's in there? wow

anyone else have a copy of the tape shown in the link below?

http://members.aol.com/loganlobo1/steely.jpeg

I just ordered a copy but haven't received it yet. Hoping the audio and video quality are up to snuff....been on a concert video/laserdisc/dvd buying jag the last few weeks....lots of good stuff to watch....just got through with Jeff Beck: Live in Japan '99....pretty good show....got a nice Grover Washington Jr. laserdisc concert on the way....half.com is the bomb for buying some of this stuff....eBay is alright too....Ken Crane's and DVD Planet are closing out all remaining laserdisc stock....got a great Todd Rundgren and two different Todd w/Utopia laserdiscs from them for $1.99 each!

had my first root canal in 7 years today....totally painless procedure....now that the novacaine has worn off it hurts like a mo-fo!! guess it's 800 mg ibuprofen for a couple of days.

it's a long way from peak season yet, but the leaves are starting to change....the poplars and the sycamores in particular....nice golds....sumac turning different shades of gold & red....looks like a pretty season coming up.

oh well, think I'll go and watch Everybody Loves Raymond....it's actually a new show tonight....hope y'all are all doing well.

MC

Dr. Wu....sorry to hear of the loss of your friend and bandmate....our thoughts are with you and the rest of the band and to Gary's wife and young daughter.

To P.C. of Doctor Wu -

I got the news from W.W. Gary was a great guy. I am really going to miss him. My condolences go out to you, the band, and Gary's family and friends.

God bless him and his family. God bless us all.

See you at 14 Below on Saturday night.

Steveedan

BEWARE OF THE NEW "VOTE FOR PEACE"/"VOTE FOR AMERICA" VIRUS - it'll not only propogate to others through your Outlook, but will erase all files on your hard disk...

what'd I tell ya? the dog catcher likes neutered poodles

that was not my testy poodle post, btw - i was home feedin the kids and am getting ready for another save the world meeting now

hey tones, buddy ;p

Our condolances DrWu

People such as bin Laden are as likely to fly their own terrorist missions or willingly stand trial as Emporer Hirohito was to fly a Kamikazi mission. bin Laden *is* willing to let his lackeys die instead along with innocent civilians for his mutated causes...

Yes we see - the dog catcher favours neutered poodles.

I don't know if anyone's made this point yet (yeah I'm underlurked), but these tragic events of the past few weeks have been brought about by another *male dominated* group of fanatics. Our *male dominated* intelligence and military *failed* us. And it's our *male ego* that is resorting to a violent response that will more than likely drag on for years without ever fully ending the terrorist threat, because as long as people suffer unjustly, even if that is only an uninformed perception, there will be terrorists convinced they're fighting the "good" fight. And they'll continue to kill our innocent people while we kill their innocent people. Like real *men*.

I say call the terrorists to the bargaining table in exchange for the arrest and trial of those responsible for the attack. If they are willing to die for their cause, they should be willing to stand trial for their cause. If they aren't willing to be arrested for they're cause, then they will be exposed as self-serving hypocrites willing to sacrifice others but not themselves,losing them the idealistic support of their followers.

*Then* fry'em or bomb 'em.

Sorry, had a testosterone moment there...

how would you know?

Why would I want/need to stand out anonyfuck when I can just be tones? Here's looking through you... ya stroke...

Btw, real men don't *whine* about the feminization of society...

t
low and to the left

Dr. Wu, incredibly sad. I did not know Gary Persons but I did have the privilege of seeing him perform. All of us at Which One's Pink? join in sending you our thoughts and prayers.

Thank you all for the kind words.

Dr Wu- Sad News.Hang tough

Doctor Wu: Sorry to hear about your loss. Thoughts and prayers your way.

Aus

Dear Dr. Wu,

I am so sorry to hear about your bandmate and friend....my deepest condolences to you. May God keep and bless you at this time. Friends say to me...time is the greatest healer.

:(

~wormy: Exactly right on the 5.1 plush - I noticed that immediately when I set up the channels - solo to center and all sorts of weirdness throughout the rears. I kicked it back to typical and was happy.

Is it too soon to quietly plug the New Orleans show on 10/23??

whomever and whatever, amen: No, that wasn't me posting. I tell ye, when I post over here I guarantee only one thing - a signature. Content quality might rival that of processed field grass through a Guernsey but I'll acknowledge it, by God...

who knows I have enough trouble keeping up with the drivel as it is.

Is now the time to really be having a dig at each other..

Major life things are happennig to everybody who reads or lurks on this board.

These times sure HAVE changed.

Q. in 20 yrs when your children access the archives , Do you really want them to read what you've posted

A. good question

= think before you post

Duncan saying STAY STRONG

xxx

so sorry to hear the news, dr wu

On Friday morning, 9-21-01, Gary Persons, former trumpet player with the Doctor Wu band, was killed in a car accident on the way back to Los Angeles, from a business trip in Nebraska.

Gary was unable to get a flight due to recent events, so he decided to drive.

Gary was not only a player, and a good guy, but he also directed our horn section. His loyalty, and committment to the band was second to none, and we will always be greatful for his contributions. He will be sorely missed.

Rock and roll heaven just got better.

He is survived by his wife Caron, and a young daughter from a prior marriage.

again, IF there is really no link from Condit to the disappearance of Levy, what do we care what committee he's on as long as he's qualified to be on it - if he's been on these types of committees before, then what's the problem? yeah, the guy's a jerk in "real life", and i mean a real jerk, horrendously and selfishly insensitive even to not disclose his relationship when she turned up missing, but this is hardly the time to be thinking about the personal life of a congressman - again, the big IF is IF he was or was not involved and that remains to be seen, so yes, in good armchair political discussion circles he should be laying low, as it were....

1. The real worldÐattainable for the sage, the pious, the virtuous man; he lives in it, he is it. (The oldest form of the idea, relatively sensible, simple, and persuasive. A
circumlocution for the sentence, "I, Plato, am the truth.")

2. The real worldÐunattainable for now, but promised for the sage, the pious, the virtuous man ("for the sinner who repents"). (Progress of the idea: it becomes more
subtle, insidious, incomprehensibleÐit becomes a woman, it becomes Christian.)

3. The real worldÐunattainable, indemonstrable, unpromisable; but the very thought of itÐa consolation, an obligation, an imperative. (At bottom, the old sun, but seen
through mist and skepticism. The idea has become elusive, pale, Nordic, Konigsbergian. )

4. The real worldÐunattainable? At any rate, unattained. And being unattained, also unknown. Consequently, not consoling, redeeming, or obligating: how could
something unknown obligate us? (Gray morning. The first yawnings of reason. The cockcrow of positivism.)

5. The "real world"Ðan idea which is no longer good for anything, not even obligatingÐan idea which has become useless and superfluousÐconsequently, a refuted
idea: let us abolish it! (Bright day; breakfast; return of bon sens and cheerfulness, Plato blushes for shame, pandemonium of all free spirits.)

6. The real worldÐwe have abolished. What world has remained? The apparent one perhaps? But no! with the real world we have also abolished the apparent
one! (Noon; moment of the briefest shadow; end of the longest error; high point of humanity; INCIPIT ZARATHUSTRA.)

MAking Of Aja - BUY IT!

In brief, more of the same sad double-bind message that men need to protect women to get in their pants -- even AFTER they've raised their kids -- and yet should somehow not be belligerent in doing it... Oh and also how a man should somehow keep WANTING to get in their pants after the woman's put on 30 lbs.

Gary Condit named to anti-terrorism committee...
I just had to repeat that, kinda let it sink in real slow... Really was that the best candidate we could find? Me thinks we might be in bigger trouble than we thought...

shoot - what happened today, i missed it

Trollop? I like that word. One some of you here would do well to learn.

stop, i'm laughing too hard - you "guys" are a riot! lol!

...very few.

LOL - good one! see, you can have fun!

and we know that you've handled a few!

well, duh - only the anon's want to stand out, not the posters with an anon handle (?) lol

Name: µ
the noose tightens

Date: Monday, September 24, 19101 at 12:11:30
Comments:

Play by play relayed from Vin SKully -

http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010924/14/news-attacks-russia

Irony of ironies - the Russians helps the folks with the Stinger missles who sent them packing in the first place.

Note: only 3 nations, which are of Middle Eastern origin including Iraq and 2 more that I can hardly stand to hear recognize the Taliban and the current Pres. as the official heads of State...

in other news, Dylan's new one debuted at #5 while Mariah's only at #7 (now there's some justice). Ben Folds is rocking the suburbs at #42 or whatevah... The clips/MP3s I downloaded this weekend sounded very good. A very consistent, high quality group of compositions (probably his most consistent). Ben Folds supposedly plays all the instruments (he started off as a drummer years ago). It sound more straightforward and homogenized, like the BB5 first 2 with less goofing around. A little less edge and adventurous though, especially vs. Reinhold Meissner. The style on the new one is uniquely Ben Folds. hard to hear any pure Billy Joel or Steely Dan or Joe Jackson or Elton John or ragtime or jazz anymore - just Ben Folds integrating his many musical interests.

Those who loved BB5 and Whatever and Ever Amen should love this one. It seems new fans are probable as this is his most accessible disc. Those who prefer Reinhold Meissner like myself most, may be a little dissappointed at a less daring disc. But the songs sound so darned good, he's forgiven and legit purchase is now imminent. I wonder if the general public remembers what a melody sounds like...

A cat will eat anything when hungry. So will a dog. So will you. So starve yourself for a few days, have your fingers with some ketchup and don't forget to really chew your tongue before you swallow it with some cheaper wine. Is that a deal, prrrrrrrrrrrr

lp -- Neither you nor tones hangs. Neither do either of you stand out.

On Sept. 24, 1789, Congress passed the First Judiciary Act, which provided for an Attorney General and a Supreme Court.

leave it to an anon to take it to an even more ridiculous level - radical feminism is a joke and unnecessary at many levels, i don't hang with man-haters, that's silly - stop that

...um, her penis size.

The first person to actually reveal his penis size.

negz - Lol! Too funny... You've just given a plausible explanation of my theory of GB relativity: the bigger the GB asshole = the smaller the penis they have, or GBass=>penis. In some cases around here, the penis can must be measured as a sub-atomic particle. So far this equation seems as certain as gravity.

Gina - I saw you were singing a song of the past... it feels alright! Super glad you're back, and count on me to bring up the making of Aja vid should you ever stray again... :-)

t

I'm gonna smack'em, I tell you. Radical feminists, I mean. I'm gonna take a ball bat to'em.

No. Wait. Better idea. I mean, this country invented the wood-chipper. And there's always a market for cat food.

What astonishes me is how feminists have managed to poison relations between men and women. Somehow they have created a nightmare world that doesn't exist, an atmosphere of weird paranoid hostility, and made women, or a few women women, believe they live in it.

The other day I saw some mutant frump on television. I think it was Patricia Ireland, but it could have been Shamu gone bad. Anyway, she looked like a fireplug with leprosy, and she was hollering about how men were always battering women. (Ever notice that these gals are all either butt-ugly or gay as Easter bonnets? Suppose there's a reason?)

Feminists are always hollering about how women are battered, beaten, raped, underpaid, bruised, scorned--how women crawl in gutters, pleading for help, struggling piteously, while men--men--stand over them in hobnailed boots, grinning and saying, "Har har har."

Don't the men you know do that?

These fantasies rely on battered-women studies, usually written by academic feminists. (Incidentally, friends whom I trust implicitly tell me that Ph.D. doesn't really stand for Purple-Haired Dike. I don't know why not.) They typically say that four out of five women are battered three times every five nanoseconds. Or seven of eight, or nine of ten. It doesn't matter.

Actually, I can hardly get any work done, being so busy battering my daughters and girlfriends. It's a burden. I hardly have time to molest my children. (Six out of every four men molest their children.)

It's nonsense, as a cursory examination of the evidence easily shows. But who examines evidence?

Then there are the feminist rape fantasies, much in vogue with co-eds seeking an outlet for hysterical tendencies. The average feminist couldn't get raped on a troopship with a gallon of bourbon, but never mind.

I recently read a study claiming that one in two women will be a victim of rape.

Sure. And I'm Lady Jane Grey.

Think about it. Does this mean that one in two men is a rapist? Or are there a few really busy guys out there?

None of this stuff is true, which doesn't matter at all.

Do women believe it? The other night I was in a bar with a buddy who has wearied of this stuff. He turned to three pretty women playing pool and asked, "Hey, have you been raped?" They looked surprised. (Maybe it's not a standard pick-up line.) He explained about the studies. They didn't see much sense in it. "That's nuts," said one correctly. Another's comment was a sardonic "Raped?. . . Not that I remember."

Oh, lord--I can see the headline: "Study reveals that nine of ten women don't remember being raped."

The truth, plain as zits on a prom queen, is that feminists are a hate group, like the KKK or the Baader-Meinhof Gang, only probably loonier. (Feminutsies?) (Sorry. It's late.) They are liars, and verge on crazy. And they're chronically furious. They don't want to be women, and can't be men, and so compromise on being disagreeable.

Above all else they hate the thought of women having sex with men. At the University of Michigan, maybe it is, there's a bilious woman named Catharine MacKinnon. Kitty Mac is a nice-looking babe when she keeps her mouth shut, which isn't often, and has a certain patrician charm that I associate with jock itch. I find by her this, appalling for its sheer prissiness:

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike. . . In this light, the major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it."

I guess Kitty Mac and I date different classes of women.

To a feminist, everything sounds like rape. Peanut butter sounds like rape. Wallpaper sounds like rape. The dew on the flowers of morn sounds like rape. I note in passing that Kitty Mac speaks of sex with men as an alien concept, as if she knew of it by dispatches from a distant front.

I think feminists hate the idea of normal sex because they regard men as poachers.

The feminists have persuaded us that even an office is a dark and dangerous place. Yep. Here we encounter Sexual Harassment, which amounts to absurdity as a rationale for Stalinism. Don't you love it? Rape lurks by the water cooler. Bob the comptroller, with the love-handles and wry sense of humor, harbors the lusts of Jack the Ripper. Jimbo tells blonde jokes. Clearly he hates women. He probably melts Barbie Dolls for a hobby. Peril is everywhere. We must be vigilant or the boogeyman will leap from the supply closet.

Unfortunately this stuff is serious. If a man tells a dirty joke, or if a woman who doesn't like him says he did, he can lose his job. We have sensitivity training about impure ideas. It's because women don't know about sex. Nor do they have dirty thoughts.

A woman I know said recently that when she entered a room full of guys at work, laughing and talking, they fell silent. She was puzzled and hurt. I wasn't puzzled. So many women have chips on their shoulders, and the penalties for offending them are so great, that silence is the wise course. Is this what we want?

You might be surprised at how many men--including to my knowledge, admirals, generals, the editor of a major newspaper--won't let women into their offices without having a witness present. Bureaucrats in Washington live in an atmosphere of (I apologize in advance) fear and loafing, afraid to discipline female subordinates who don't do their jobs. My buddy the scuba-instructor won't help female students put on their gear. I doubt that on woman in 50, or one in a hundred, would charge that he groped her, but all it takes is one neurotic.

Trouble is, nobody has the moxie to tell these scrofulous tarantulas to bugger off. Which is well for feminists: If people started laughing at them, the whole shebang would collapse in ten minutes.

And they probably wouldn't even make good cat food.

hey! i say, i hear, i say, i hear, we is discussin the merits of the feeeeeemale persuasion, well let me tell you, son, i say i never met a hen i didn't like, now that's a fact, son, now write that down in your little pad there, son...did ya git it?

uh son, that ain't no chickenhawk.....move on

Halloween

Blaise: Yeah, "human shields up, Scotty."

Speaking of Drudge and someone mentioned Gary Condit, take a look at this shit: and it's not even Holloween, yet!

http://www.kxtv.com/news-story/September2001/092201/CONDIT-COMMITTEE.htm

With similar attitudes towards women, grow/paste on a beard, infiltrate the Taliban...

Ooooooooooh! Lily, you make me so angry I could just stomp my foot and spit! Oooooooooh!

Squared (and quartered).

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

ah yes, i knew i could rely on neg girl to set the record straight (or crooked, lol) better than i could - thanks, how's things going?

D

ladies- whoever the stupid cracker is making these posts, we can all feel a twinge of sympathy for him. i guarantee you his mommy didn't nurture and may even have abused him in some way. it wouldn't be surprising to find that his penis is substandard- that often is enough of a recipe for cultivating an angry misogynistic swine. of course, he has suffered the scorn of women in his adult dealings, due to his pathetic shortcomings.

here you have a creature that woman IGNORED for the entirety of his life- i doubt he's ever married or sustained a long-term relationship. he's probably never had sex with the same woman twice- since upon seeing the lack of proper equipment, he was likely laughed out of the boudoir. i bet he fantasizes about very young girls because he knows they are the only ones who he might trick into believing he isn't a freak of nature.

and really- how else could he respond to this dynamic? to continue seeking the attention of the fairer sex would only remind him what an undesirable sloth he really is. creating these ridiculous notions in his pea brain somehow must stave off the loneliness and sexual frustration he so ardently experiences. so let him toot his miniscule whistle, else we might end up with more trouble from him in the future- as the unvented anger erupts into violence towards women in real life.

"I grew up around men with attitudes such as yours and they helped me see the
characteristics that were undesirable in a man. The women who post here are undoubtably laughing hysterically at your opinions."

The fact that you find these attitudes undesirable does not make them any less reasonable...

And "the women" are laughing because "you" or rather your "opinion" has become ubiquitous, and is a prime example of the pussification I've been referring to.

Simply proves the point.

"rein," not "reign"

Stranger, try Amazon. I think the tape is domestic and the DVD is an import

Several hundreds of years ago, Jews were driven from Israel and it became Palestine. Sixty years ago Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews which then provided the motivation to find a homeland for the Jews. Palestinians were displaced from their homes. Now we have the conflict. If the Swedes had not collaborated with the Nazis perhaps the attempted extermination of Jews would not have taken place. Then there would not have been the perceived need to create a Jewish nation in Palestine. So it is quite obvious that Sweden is the cause of this whole mess which is the direct result of that nation having failed in its effort to dominate the Russians. Clas feels guilty about "his nation's" role in causing the Palestinians to be displaced. So he has become "pro palestinia" You are so busted Clas. And there has been no shouting. No ALL CAPS posting here. Just the cold inpenetrable logic that reveals you as a pathetic member of a nation foiled in its attempt to dominate the world. Have you ever been out before?

Correction--
Non-Saudi women ARE allowed to take jobs. all those nationalities the saudi embassy guy was bragging about are indentured servants -- filipinas, etc. brought in to do the work while the saudis cash oil checks.

Naive question: what's the exact status of "The Making of Aja?" can it be purchased, rented? can i try my local video store?

I spent the weekend travelling to DC, eating cheeze nips, drinking beer, dancing with my wife, eating buffalo wings, dancing with all the other girls, drinking more beer, sleeping late on Sunday, watching football, travelling home, putting my kids to bed...

It was great. Not to belittle the gravity of the situation, but

LIFE IS GOOD. Don't forget it.

z- Buy it.

Clas,
you are so naive. I am telling you absolutely for certain no other religions can set up churches, temples, or anything of the kind in saudi arabia. It's been documented in countless places. Non-muslim warship is banned all over the country. Jews are not allowed in, although the U.S. refuses to abide by the rule when posting military and others there. women are not allowed to drive or take jobs. the person you spoke to lied to you. he is probably still laughing at your gullibility. yes, non-muslims are banned from two cities. but you asked one question and he answered another and you accepted it. if we were all that dumb we would all be ruled by an arab king. you are so full of self-hatred for being a white european that you are willing to believe that a ridiculous feudal monarchy that makes no pretense of democracy or fair play is somehow superior to western civilization.

To the anon poster who has been showing us the reason women have been moving for equality across the board: I can't believe how wrong you are on all counts.

If you are married she must be a doormat as you are no better than dirt. I grew up around men with attitudes such as yours and they helped me see the characteristics that were undesirable in a man. The women who post here are undoubtably laughing hysterically at your opinions.

What a schmuck.

jim#, is that you sweetheart?

The premise of the current adventure is that men and woman are fungible -- that, perhaps after a bumpy start, and with the temporary encouragement of affirmative action, the sexes will work happily, and interchangeably, side by side. Any doubts regarding the probability of this sunny consummation are held to represent the most retrograde of social thought.

To phrase it differently, can anyone who has been married believe that the countless incompatibililities, and ways of thought opaque to the other sex, will somehow vanish in public life?

For example, the sexes handle disagreement differently. Men keep conflict carefully impersonal. They know that conflict can quickly become physical. ItÕs how men are. In the past, quarrels led to fighting and, perhaps, death. Today, even in the office, push a man too hard and he will revert to the instinctive: ÒWhat is your freaking problem?Ó The body language, unnoticed but decidedly read, will say, ÒShut up or escalate.Ó

Men donÕt like to do either. They keep disagreement abstract. It is safer.

Women by contrast prefer the personal and emotional. When a woman is angry, she becomes personally disagreeable in ways that would leave a man picking up his teeth. Men, wired to avoid the personal, to regard personal attack as serious, do not know what to do in the face of uncontrolled anger, tears, or emotionalism. In private life, they flee. At work, where women have real power, shrugging it off doesnÕt work.

By instinct men back down from angry women when, today, backing down isnÕt a good idea. This may be the determining idea of the coming century.

Further, men like hierarchy. In a sense it permits impersonality: You obey the rank, not the man. From a manÕs point of view, the effect is to promote efficiency, to allow a focus on the job at hand, while avoiding personal conflict.

Women neither like nor respect hierarchy, particularly male hierarchy, and their mere presence short-circuits it. Sexual tension is inescapable among humans. Sex generates equality. A male colonel regards a male private as a subordinate. Instinctively he regards a female private as a woman. Both feel the age-old contract, that women trade sex for anything they want, and men trade anything they have for sex. Most women in varying degrees will use the equation, while insisting otherwise. Men canÕt. The greater the degree of hierarchy, the greater the divisiveness.

The key word in all of this is instinct: We are wired to behave in these ways. When footsteps are heard downstairs at night, it is invariably the man who grabs the pistol and goes to adjust the burglar. A man, with a little encouragement, will open doors for a woman, take her coat, hold her chair. Only with the aid of powerful drugs could one imagine a woman doing these things for a man.

For that matter, until recently men routinely paid for dates. Now women will often split the tabÑbut the woman never routinely pays. A man with an adequate salary will usually, and without objection, support a woman who doesnÕt work, but the reverse is almost never true.

This isnÕt simple gold-digging. Rather, women seem by instinct to expect to be cared for by men, and men expect to do it. It no longer makes economic sense. The instinct remains.

The conflict between the instinctive desire to be protected, and the political determination to have no part of it, plays a large part in sexual politics. Note the near-hysteria of the hostility to Deadbeat Dads Ð that is, men who donÕt meet the expectations of instinct.

We are dealing with inbuilt behavior, and telling ourselves it is politics. Note that women unendingly demand more funding for medical research into diseases peculiar to women. Yet it is common knowledge that men die some seven years earlier than women, suggesting starkly that men, not women, need more research. Never in fifty years on the planet have I heard any woman, ever, say, ÒMy god, our men are dying. We must do something.Ó Why not?

Either (a) women are grotesquely selfish or (b) they are wired to look after their own physical well-being, and that of the children, while letting men take care of themselves. Since women do not in general seem to be selfish, IÕll take (b).

Finally, and crucially: The womenÕs movement today is no longer a quest for equality. It was, but isnÕt. It has become instead a drive for revenge, for power, and for domination over and humiliation of men. It is never phrased this way, of course. For tactical reasons, feminists trade in the highly solvent currency of rights, justice, discrimination, and victimhood. Men say little. They cannot afford psychologically to admit the extent to which they are being walked on.

But think about what is actually happening. For example, the campaign to force Virginia Military Institute first to accept girls and second, to retain pregnant ones, was hardly founded on a pent-up desire among women to be in the infantry. The intent was to humiliate a profoundly male institution, and force men to swallow it. It worked.

The campaign of humiliation has succeeded all across the country, too wildly for easy explanation. Males in offices tremble in fear of charges of harassment. Powerful editors are afraid to be alone with a woman in their offices. A female officer in the military can complain that a morning run is demeaning, whereupon the Pentagon will obediently stop the runs. Think carefully about this: The Joint Chiefs of Staff are afraid of a woman who doesnÕt feel like running. Something strange is happening.

The truth is that men are crawling like neutered poodles, and feminists are quietly laughing. They are instinctively contemptuous of men they can push around, which today means almost all of them. ItÕs fascinating, twisted, almost kinky. One thinks of a dog rolling over to bare its throat to appease a bigger dog.

Whatever it is, wherever it is going, it is not as simple as we pretend. It is not even close.

clas

the comments from Shorter on the Making of Aja
were not directed at the boys but rather at Miles

basically Miles telling him to maintain a quiet exterior
leave a little mystery in his personna

that quiet drawn out voice was Wayne imitating Miles
"Don't wear your heart on your sleave"

Don and Walt were quite complimentary
noting Wayne's approach to laying down tracks to being similiar to how he interfaced with Miles and that they had no problem with that, and actually encouraged it.

it's too bad we don't have Steve Gadd's input there as well

remember Shorter was playing over Gadd's already recorded drum tracks. two takes each and the second one was probably just to see where else they would stretch

wormy

ah, to see all this talk about the Making of Aja made me jump in here to testify on a very sorry but also hilarious coincidence already uttered (love this word, it's english more than american isn't it?) in a friendred (as in kindred) forum that has no desire to corner anyone if even so for its namesake. i have the Making of Aja on tape and can only see things in the fast forward kind of mode, the speed Walter Becker likes and an answer to a question i read somewhere and it won't leave me, hm .. the fast forward .. yes .. as in recap but pronto?
so i have to get my hands on a regular Making of Aja.
will bear patience.
and i now experience a dŽja vž kind of thing here.
let's have the Banyan Trees BACK to where it was a year, a year and a half, two years ago even. yes. let's have it BACK there but then in a present jacket ...

Banyan Tree Retro Ain't All But A Lot Bow,
G.

Thanks Howard, I should know about the Envelope-Effect, could it be ÓCompressorÓ or ÓGateÓ as we call it in say in Sweden? or isn't it something called Envelope Harmonizer? Got it back in my mind.

But this wasn't funny, I thought it was much funnier if The Two thought the solo should be put back in the envelope and being returned to sender.

That was my innerpenetration. And now you've ruined it :(

---

wt - well, Shorter is talking about, Ódon't give away too muchÓ (as you mentioned) and Ódon't wear your heart on the sleeve...Ó and Óthey had turned down the lightsÓ - what I understand he's kind of poking fun over Our Boys?

C

exactly my point, ha - thanks, loser

Maybe I'm just a country boy at heart, and lack sophistication, and don't see things the way I should. But when I watch one of those radical-feminist women heave onto a podium, like the forehaunches of an under-nourished giraffe but with more hair on her lip, and start hollering and carrying on about what slugs and bandits men are, I start thinking of the curative powers of a shotgun full of rock salt.

I recommend a 12-gauge duck gun.

It's the incivility of these feminist people that gets to me. Most of them seem to have the manners of a guard dog , but without the utility. (I know, I know, I'm going to get angry letters. From guard dogs.) For pure bile, you can't beat a radical feminist. The average specimen can turn out bad temper for hours on end, like lumber from a sawmill, and any of it sounds like all the rest. The following, which gives the flavor, is from Andrea Dworkin, who I gather is a sort of museum-piece siege howitzer for feminism.

It's pretty much how they all talk. Listen:

"Men use the night to erase us...The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality, and so the night is the sacred time of male sexual celebration, because it is dark and in the dark it is easier not to see: not to see who she is. Male sexuality, drunk on its intrinsic contempt for all life, but especially for women's lives, can run wild, hunt down random victims, use the dark for cover, find in the dark solace, sanctuary, cover."

I do?

How does a man respond to such a broadside? The prose could use some lubrication, of course, and maybe a new set of plug wires, but I'm talking about the content. My first impulse is to reassure the poor woman: "There, there, Andrea, you're safe, nights just don't get dark enough." My second impulse is to wonder just how much radical feminists know about male sexuality, and what book they read it in.

I like to picture myself on a Saturday-night date in high school, parking on a back road.

My date: "You're driving kind of funny. I reckon it was the beer."

Me: "Why, no, Sally. I'm drunk on my intrinsic contempt for all life."

Sally: "You're so silly. Come here."

Me: "Soon...soon. Do you mind staying here by yourself for a bit?"

Sally: "Huh?"

Me: "I need to, uh, you know, run wild for a few minutes. Hunt down a few random victims. Use the dark for cover. Guy stuff."

Sally: "You nuts or something?"

Me: "It's...night, Sally...the sacred time of male sexual celebration."

Sally: "You're gonna do it out there?"

OK, I understand that the radical feminist ladies are a few french fries short of a Happy Meal. They can't help themselves. What I can't figure is why more-or-less grown-up editors publish all this clucking and scratching as if it made sense. And I also don't understand how the rules got fixed so that a Dworkin can say anything at all about men and get away with it--but men can't say anything back.

Any loon feminist can accuse men of being rapists, killers, sadists, and Marines. These are pretty serious charges. A fellow could take exception to them. But if I say something comparatively innocuous in return, such as that I weary of being harried by a rat-pack of diesel-fired tarantulas who mostly look like Rin Tin Tin's littermates--why, they get mad. (Yes, I know, that was a three-animal zoological-automotive metaphor. Patent applied for.)

I figure if radical-feminist ladies can talk ugly about us, then we can talk ugly about them. And we're probably better at it, which they might bear in mind.

What I say is, if you have pool-hall manners, you ought to expect to play by pool-hall rules. Any guy who doesn't work for the Washington Post knows this. Go into the wrong bar, and somebody will likely hit you over the head with a pool cue. Nothing wrong with that. But the assailant will grant you the right, while questioning your ability, to smack him on the head with your cue. Symmetry. Reciprocity. Conservation of parity.

Not those feminist people. They want to swing cues. They don't want to get swung at. I say let's treat'em equal.

It'll happen. Some day before long I'll be talking about something sensible, like a '57 Chevy with Carter AFBs and a three-quarter Isky and 17 coats of hand-rubbed Orchard Mist lacquer that looks like Chinese emerald carving if they'd done it right. Sure enough, some dog-biscuit feminist is going to sniff, "Ah, yes, boys and their toys. Boys will be boys. Intrinsic contempt for...."

And I'm going to say, "Mercy, lady, mercy. Yes, we males are a sorry lot, sinners all, and neck deep in iniquity. The shame of it bores into my soul. Now you go stand in the middle of Dupont Circle at high noon, with a pair of seven-by-fifty binoculars, and look real carefully all around, and point to one thing, with a moving part, that was invented by a radical feminist."

Then I'll go for my duck gun.

in an interview on abc this morning the producer that pulled together the telethon was questioned as to why others weren't there, like madonna etc - the poor guy had this look on his face like "you gotta be kidding" and just said basically, whoever called got in then they had to limit it - but can you believe the freakin media trying to make a story out of that? so odd- like the fact that celine knew the words to one of the american anthems - lol - and, yes, loved neil young, he's still a god, sting too

lily - honey child, that war you described has been over for a couple of generations now, get with the program - ever watched sex and the city - you can have the marlboro man and still knock some heads at work the next day, if you keep yourself in check and not take yourself too seriously, you can really have both, it's being done all the time - and btw, other women have figured out the marlboro man beat his wife and drank too much so they stayed away from him, that's the real "power" women got over the last thirty years that i've seen, they've said "i don't have to take this crap", and what the hell is wrong with that? if having the big strong man to take care of me means i have to put up with his crap, no thanks..... i do the same job as a guy, i should make the same - and i still make more than my husband and he wishes i made more (which i'm working on) - follow me around for a day, pal: dog catcher, mom, and a real hot wife and i look in the mirror, wishing a few pounds away but still feelin pretty good just the same - your lamenting is so outdated, i can't even believe it, one of the more ridiculous posts i've seen in a long time, likely written by a guy - get over it, those days are long gone and i'm so glad they are

and, as they used to say during wwII when people would do/say stupid meaningless stuff: "hey, don't you know there's a war on?!"

missed the celebrity bah this weekend, a nice get away to the gulf instead

clas - Shorter's comments on Aja
what didn't you understand?
love that comment about Miles
"don't give away too much"

5.1 Plush - I've heard it in that setup and wasn't enamored by it at all. Rather than keep the instruments grounded, the soloist ends up swapping to the center track. At times the backup vocals are spread in the rear channels. A bit too much flopping back and forth on the imaging for my likes. Much prefer the stereo mix.

wt

z-- don't waste your time with getting the making of aja. You'll hate it.

Clas: "envelope effect" is where you change the attack/sustain/decay of a note. On a guitar, when you pluck the note you get a fast attack, then the note gradually decays. Envelope filters can change that, to give you a slow attack (or fast decay or whatever), which can radically change the sound of the note.

z/x - let me echo the thoughts of others: The "Making of Aja" tape/DVD is well worth having. Interesting chat with Donald, Walter and many of the session guys (alas, no Gadd), but there's *loads* of great musical insights too. Donald and Walter pick out tracks as they play through the multi-track masters of several songs, and there's great stuff here:

* Listen to the Mike McDonald Peg harmonies on their own, or the female vocals on "Deacon Blues" - you can really appreciate these things when they're isolated from the multi-track tapes.

* Hear your basic trio of drums/bass/keyboard from Peg, it sounds superb.

* Marvel at Larry's "tasty" guitar playing on D.Blues

* check out the garbage can lid overdub on Josie

* check out the weird synth sounds on some of the tracks (some quite funny moments where D+W can't quite seem to remember why they decided to add such an awful sounding synth to the track...)

There are some downsides - nothing at all is said about "I Got The News", great shame. Also, because the multi-track master tapes for "Aja" and "Black Cow" have gone missing, you only get to hear these as we already know them - no individual tracks or interesting remixes. No mention of the Gadd drum solo is also inexcusable.

BTW does anyone know if the multi-track masters for these 2 tracks have been found? Seems crazy that they have been lost, but the liner notes in the re-released Aja confirm this is really what happened.

LisaG - some great posts recently, keep them coming. I too would love to know what was *actually said* by Gina/Blaise/Clas/whoever that so upset some folks.

The quote about understanding why there is so much hatred against the USA in some parts is, I think, a key question in this whole affair.

Howard

I think what Becker meant by "enveloppe" is an effect used to kill the sustain between notes, making it sound real thin and that's what they were experimenting with. But hey, I haven't been into all that guitar playing stuff in a while now. That's what I remember. Howard should have lunch in a few minutes and no doubt, he can be more specific. The result "speaks for itself", to use a line from the video.

Blaise - envelope effect? Is there such thing as an envelope-effect? I thought The Two meant that the solo sounded like a little piece of nothing, something you could put in an envelope and send back home to the farm.

?

C

the Stranger - I regret I said that, you're NOT screaming and shouting... sorry.

Blaise - yeah, but I believe the tiny sounds of the guitars and the rest of the instruments are because the stuff is post-mixdown, no effects are added etc, I think JW Malibu and other studio-foxes can explain that better than I can.

And you're right, these guys really knew what they were searching for, no doubt, I just can't believe how they actually could Óstrung outÓ with the studio-work so long. According to my tiny experiences of studio-work, it's tiresome, you lose your patient, let's get the shit done now. But of course, if someone else is paying for the studio time and the musicians, well... he he.

C

Hey Mu, looks like our pal Henry Limpdick hacked the Drudge Report this morning. lol

http://www.drudgereport.com/

That's the beauty of free form poetry. It often turns into self-fullfilling prophecy.

Schwinn, I didn't think it was inappropriate myself but judging from the current wave of censorship, which leads people to pull out scenes where the Towers are merely represented... I think you get where I'm going. Btw, the song is easy to listen to. I don't see that as a serious problem.

Clas - I couldn't believe how shitty those first Peg solos sounded. Especially that one you talk about, the one using an enveloppe effect. There's no sustaining notes and it goes nowhere fast. Whoever cut that one was clearly uninspired. Even Graydon's solo, takem by itself, isolated, sounds pretty bad but once it's integrated with the rest, it blends in perfectly. One of those examples where it paid off to be patient and wait for the right thing to come along. And thank gawd, they did in this case.

Some of the texts down there bring up one question in my mind: are american leaders really as worldly-wise as they like to project? At the very least, I don't think Intelligence can remain free of ideology.

Schwinn - thank you, I thought I had to download a lot of shit first... but now, I'll go listen.

z - the Video is worth its money just for the scene when Fagen/Becker is listening to Peg, muting out all instruments and they're listening to the guitar-solos who were played before ÓGraydon came in and did it...Ó.

There's a tiny solo soloed on the console, Becker says something like ÓHmmm, one of those small envelope kind of solos...Ó Fagen turns to him saying Ómaybe it's you playing?Ó

---

the Stranger - I was curious about your ÓfactsÓ on Saudi Arabia, I called their Embassy here in Stockholm, asked if Christians and Jews were banned from their country. They guy I talked to said.

ÓHow could we bann them? Saudi Arabia is practicing Freedom of Religion. We have people here from the whole world, from the Phillipines, India, we have Christians, Jews...
BUT, only muslims are allowed to visit Mecka and Medina, for religous reasons.Ó

I have no problem staying out from Mecka and Medina. Do you have a problem with that Stranger?

And Swedish guilt? Don't think so. You are yelling and screaming in this very unpleasant way towards my direction, because I am Pro Palestina and you just can't take that.

And by the way, Swedes are known for their Diplomacy, our former Minister of Foreign Affairs, did a great job (and is still doing, he's a very good friend with Arafat)as a mediator between Israel - Palestina.

C

:^)

We own the franchise. All of this globalization babble would not be possible at all if not for the moral authority, although not claiming perection just light years beyond any other relevant global power, and the military capabitlity of the US.

Forget abstract unarticulated globalization garble. We are the recognized global leader and we can not allow unprovoked attacks on our soveriegn soil. Unprovoked does not allow for delusional pseudo religios political economic subterfuge.

Clas & Angel--as far as I know Mp3.com only requires an e-mail address to listen to the songs. I'm positive there is no fee to do so.

Blaise--thanks for the nice words. As far as what might be morally objectionable at this time, well, you'll just have to make your own judgement. My intentions were purely cathartic

The song can be heard at: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/310/faradays_dog.html

There are more songs coming with a less controversial theme. Thank you for listening.

Globalization is all about caring what they think. And there's just no doing without globalization -- code for democratization, industrialization and secularization.

Firt, we aren't that stupid. We know where plenty of hostile infrastructure is.

Second we don't care what they think.

We know we are acting with integrity so we don't need their approval.

Grow up.

Once they figured out what we were doing -- missing the terrorists and hitting all kinds of other things including nothing, they might think us a bit daft, wasteful and foolish.

I think we should use percussion bombs, and tactical nukes all over the friggin Middle East to shock them the way they shocked us. I think we can put on a much bigger and entertaining show.
I think this would paralyze them for a goo while. But only if we do it on a massive scale.

It's a slam dunk strategy that would inspire or cower all the world.

It's perfection and grace.

Thanks angel for telling me I could scroll on by; I wouldn't have known otherwise.

z/x: Making Aja is a MUST HAVE tape! You will want to refer to it often. It is not something for one time viewing. There is SO much information, that you have to go back several times to understand it all. I like how they play the songs also, because, unlike the PBS show, they stay on the performers who are playing. You don't have all those moving shots up Donald's nose, or the total missed shot that you have on the Plush. My favorite example is when Herrington does the solo on Pretzel Logic and they show Becker's guitar work for at least 1/2 the solo. Drives me crazy, every time I watch it. Making Aja, is much more laid back and casual. You can watch their technique. Ok, this is the last time I try to convince you, after today, my conscience is clear. Buy it or not, you choose.

Suddenly, we were being told how to be patriotic and how to mourn. CNN shifted its slogan from ÒAmerica AttackedÓ to ÒAmericaÕs New War.Ó CBSÕs became ÒAmerica Rising.Ó ABCÕs Web site offered downloadable American flags, while Kmart printed a full-page version of Old Glory in SundayÕs New York Times. When volunteers did something to help a victim, the TV story was accompanied by an explanatory logo: ÒQuiet Acts of Heroism.Ó And President Bush (news - web sites) began being propped up with headlines hailing his newfound legitimacy and triumphant trip to New York, although Tim RussertÕs interview made it clear that Dick Cheney (news - web sites) thinks heÕs running the country. While we were ceaselessly bombarded with poll numbers announcing Š 23 AmericansÕ approval of a war effort Ñ and The Daily NewsÕ Saturday headline called up ÒGrief, RevengeÓ Ñ not a soul commented on the tin ear displayed by the term ÒOperation Noble Eagle,Ó which sounds less like a call to battle than the badly translated title of an early Sammo Hung movie.
It would be dishonest to claim that we heard no astringent voices, though they did sound frustrated that nobodyÕd been listening to what theyÕd been saying all along. The FAAÕs exÐsecurity chief Billie Vincent told ABC that the airlines have cared more about their bottom lines than the safety of their passengers. And over on CNNÕs Capital Gang, mad dog Robert Novak wiped away his mouth-foam long enough to ask Amanpour if she was ÒoptimisticÓ that Bush could put together a coalition like the one his father had. ÒWell, IÕm not optimistic or pessimistic,Ó she replied wearily. ÒIÕm just looking at what is coming out of the capitals since President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) have been talking about this coalition.Ó That is, she was being a reporter, not a propagandist.
You canÕt just watch or read the news Ñ you have to look through it. On September 15, the L.A. TimesÕ huge piece on Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) managed to avoid spelling out his CIA (news - web sites) connections, although the storyÕs so familiar that it had made the front page of Le Monde a day earlier. One afternoon I was listening to a radio interview with journalist Robert Fisk, the last Westerner to interview bin Laden, who was explaining that the terrorist financier comes across as neither mad nor demonic. Abruptly, the interview was cut off from the studio with the sentence ÒAs important as it is to understand those who may have perpetrated these attacks, itÕs equally important to remember the victims.Ó The station then began talking to a guy whose wife was killed in the attack. And this was on NPR.
Although rhetorical excess is normal and probably necessary for a country thatÕs been savagely attacked, one longed for some thoughtful debate. But far from encouraging open discussion of what happened and how the country should deal with it Ñ you could search in vain for anybody from the left Ñ the media pushed the idea that a national consensus already exists. There was no serious argument about whether Afghanistan (news - web sites) might prove to be a quagmire or whether we really should flatten Kabul, a city that already looks like a sand-wrapped village from the original Star Wars. In fact, the most passionate arguments I heard came on ESPN Radio, whose guests had strong feelings about whether the NFL should cancel its games or fill stadiums with people chanting ÒUSA! USA! USA!Ó
But then, we live in what the situationist philosopher Guy Debord famously dubbed the Society of the Spectacle, where Òeverything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation.Ó Until last week, our recent wars have been fought from high in the sky, their bomb-glare shown on TV. Our airport security focuses less on human contact than on electronic screeners. Our international espionage makes a fetish of high-tech snooping Ñ although our spies canÕt speak Arabic. And when it comes to mourning the dead, many of us no longer feel comfortable with the old rituals. We tend to transform genuine grief, too, into televised spectacle. As soon as the exhausted Dan Rather broke into tears on Letterman, it instantly became part of the news.

I want to add that the VAST majority of people I talked to and interact in real life (i.e., outside the media, etc.) have been exemplary. I am proud to be associated with in any way these real life Americans...

Henry: Your post fits perfectly into the media on the clock, MTV attention span mindset and unwillingness to a) think outside the box , b) work through complexities and nuances of real problems, and c) inability to pay attention (ex. I gave no time reference). I've seen this sad state with increasing frequency in the classroom over the past 10 years. This whole affair will finally get the "reality" shows off the tube and force intellectual and emotional maturity - we hope. Having said that, most Americans (92%) are willing to rely on Powell and Co. As I stated early and often, this is essentially an ultramarathon, not a sprint. W's speech effectively laid out the general strategy. The specifics will not be within our domain for this one...It's time for America to grow up - NYC showed us how.

Hmmm... sounds like "Making of Aja" is a must-have, but not a must buy. In other words, there is verbal info there I must have but the music part is not as good so I'll try to find a copy for rental. Somehow I don't think that is going to be easy.
LG- I don't regret playing all those wedding gigs cause we used to play standards, but now it's all the contemporary crap,that may be making some people rich, but is just not worth the effort anymore.
Steveedan- I guess you're talking about LC's use of the chord progression from the intro to "Deacon Blue". On another website someone lambasted LC for stealing a Johnny Smith (elderly jazz guitarist who wrote "Walk, Don't Run" by the Ventures)song "Cougar" and using it on "When Lightning Strikes".
Well, the work week beckons, see you in a fortnight.

compels.... and it's dry Jim Lehrer or WET Gary Condit

Well of course. The Media don't know HOW to present what is fundamentally riveting material in a way that compells. It's either dry Jim Lehrer or Gary Condit. That's the American menu. If it were presented properly people would forget Gary Condit et al. If international affairs were presented and first of all UNDERSTOOD as being EXACTLY ABOUT GARY CONDIT we'd have no problem getting Oprah to cover it. But NOooooooooooooo... OH NO. Can't do that. Too deep. Too hard. Too complicated to figure that out...

Nope. Doctor Mew, I'm not listening to you anymore. Remember over 10 days ago, you and others around here, you all said "You just watch"? Remember that?
So my expectations were running high and I've been doing just that, watching, ever since. I would sit in front of the tube every night with my beer (blue chip investment these days), my trusty bag of chips and watch, hour after hour, relentlessly.
After days and nights of this, waiting for that Breaking News banner to run across the tv screen, hoping to hear Larry King exclaim "we have retaliated" or something the same, I finally turned off CNN and treated myself to a Giant game instead. I mean, you lied to me, plain and simple.
I was hoping to see some action, you know. After all, I pay a hefty price for that stupid dish.
So needless to say, I'm not listening to you anymore.
Nope, never again! An apology is in order here...
Now how about a Cruise hitting the mountain side or something. Let's blow up some sheeps. What the fuck? Let's say it's a mistake but we still manage to get some neat footage of it we can rerun for a while. Yeah... that's something to watch. Let's pretend Bush put on his trousers for a change. come on... it'll be fun. I'm bored here!

Thirty years ago, the major networks all boasted foreign bureaus Ñ international news was a vaunted part of the nightly broadcast. Now, to save money, they devote more network time to the likes of Gary Condit (a cheap story in every sense) than to covering the rest of the planet. Even after the attacks, to find out whatÕs going on beyond our borders, you must turn on the BBC, CNN International or one of the financial networks, where they know that history, like capital, is global. If you were looking for the single word that best explains why America is so tragically enmeshed in Middle Eastern politics, that word would be oil Ñ but of the major network commentators IÕve seen, only CNNÕs Christiane Amanpour says this. To judge from the other coverage, you might foolishly think that the U.S. got involved in this region because of Israel, and that weÕve made it a client state not out of geopolitical interest, but from our nationÕs famed sympathy for the Jewish people.

Ever since that deadly morning, weÕve heard that America will never be the same. But one thing didnÕt change at all: In the media, everything is eventually reduced to format and branding. Perhaps the eeriest feature of this media blitzkrieg was watching the coverage morph from honest shock to the higher brainwashing Ñ Media Fundamentalism.

Late Saturday night, CNN carried a report from Pakistan, which was being dragooned into helping the United States hunt down the terrorists. A snippet of footage showed a band of students in the streets of Islamabad raising a banner written in English for international cameras.

ÒAmerica,Ó it read, Òthink why you are hated the world over.Ó

This sign could have been a direct riposte to how millions of Americans are reacting to the murderous assaults. On radio and TV, everyone from nurses to pro athletes keep saying they are trying to ÒunderstandÓ what happened on September 11. And the refrain is nearly always the same. How could they do this to innocent people? Why do they hate us so much?

One simple answer is this. They hate us because we donÕt even know why they hate us.

ItÕs been our luxury to be so rich and powerful that we havenÕt needed to care about what AmericaÕs dominance means to the rest of the world Ñ even to the many countries that like us. We take pride in our well-meaning optimism, but this innocence is often another name for willful ignorance. When George W. Bush ran for president, it was a joke that he couldnÕt name the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf. Well, he knows it now. And so, at long last, will we. After all, it is one thing for a poor, uneducated Afghan peasant to know nothing about the ordinary people lost in the World Trade Center. ItÕs quite another for an American, who can tap into the worldÕs storehouse of information with a mouse-click, to be unable to find the Persian Gulf on a map or to be unaware that our government backs brutal, undemocratic Middle Eastern regimes. The faceless coward who did the drive-by shooting of an Indian Sikh in Mesa, Arizona Ñ because to him, a turbanÕs a turban Ñ is also a terrorist, one of an equally uncivilized kind.

When you hear Americans talking of the need to Òunderstand,Ó itÕs spooky to realize what many of them mean. As I write this, three of the six best-selling books at Amazon.com are about Nostradamus, and e-mails zip around the country explaining that the attacks were mystically linked to the number 11. So much for the belief that being ÒWesternÓ automatically protects you from being steeped in medieval stupefaction.

More on the Taliban. Anybody for a TWA Sorry flight to investigate further? Clas? Ken Starr? fezo? (congrats BTW on the last second victory)

http://mosaic.echonyc.com/~onissues/su98goodwin.html

http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/af_phgl.htm

http://www.usip.org/oc/sr/sr_afghan.html

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/fear.htm

Afghanistan is thus under a reign of terror from Pakistani extremist fanatics. The Taliban have a lot of enemies. Even Iran is hostile towards the Taliban. If an idiot like myself can find the clues on the Internet, certainly Powell, Rice and the rest of the Bush team. While it's too late to infiltrate bin Laden's group - we can target their lairs in sparsely populated areas, choke off their money sources, assume, they'll hide like cowards in the cities, using innocent civilians as protective shields. This in turn will take many of the Taliban and bin Laden's herd away from from the fronts. We then can send special forces commandos to hook up with the Northern Alliance and sweep through Afghanistan liberating it from their cruel masters. Avoid flattening Kabul. Threaten to flaten Karachi and other Pakistani to keep the pressure on a country key to this mess...anybody have a plan?

Clas is acting like he has absolutely no sense of the history of "his country" of Sweden. It is probably more likely that he is embarrassed by the impotence of his nation. It was the very nature of the Swedes to make an effort to dominate the world. That's why Charles XVI took his army thousands of miles south only to be defeated by the Russians and Peter the Great at Poltava in the Ukraine. The Swedes then receded into their role as a "nuetral" nation which is their code for WW II era collabaration with Nazis. Clas clearly is not "his own man" He is a perfect example of a "Swedish" citizen lashing out in an effort to sound and feel important when the truth his both Clas and "his nation" are irrelevant. Look at those horrible clothes that Jesper Parnevik wears. Seriously, if King Gustav can hang out at the Gold Club with Patrick Ewing and Andruw Jones, its clear that his nation has no relevance. What's next, is Sweden going to change the Nobel Peace Prize to the Gold Club Piece Prize? You have been a wonderful audience. Don't forget your cocktail waitress's cocktail.

Radio 2 played Jango's ''City of the second chance'' the other day i nearly crashed the van pulling over so fast to write down the name..

There from LA i think & the cd was released in 1999.

Quiet interesting in a way.

Duncan

Big dogs= big jobs no mystery there

Clas,
I get it. We're supposed to be tolerant of intolerant regimes like saudi arabia. Your racism scares me. you think western white people = bad, 3rd world = good. but it doesn't always work that way. i suggest you treat everyone the same. nobody should get special dispensation to assuage your nordic guilt. What would you say if the USA refused to allow muslims to build mosques or worship Islam? You'd be jumping around like a pogo stick. and you'd be right. so it's also wrong when the saudis do it. get it?

You're looking for Bonnie Raitt's Luck of the Draw, cut 3 is 'I Can't Make You Love Me.' Beautiful song by M. Reid and A. Shamblin. Careful, they sound like imperialists to me.

I'm watching the service at Yankee Stadium. They just opened and presented the colors and all joined in to sing the National Anthem - all except for hillary clinton. Maybe it's because her and bill had to sit in the back row. Or maybe she doesn't know the words.

Stevee... What do you think of Carlton's solo album "Sleepwalk"??

Lars -

Nice Tom Scott reference. That song is in my Fake Book. I was talking about that song and Rock Island Rocket off of the Tom Cat album just last night to my guitar player. We were also talking about some old Larry Carlton solo tunes, live Joni Mitchell (Miles Of Aisles and Shadows And Light, along with Court And Spark, Hejira), and and also some Jeff Beck stuff. We were trying to think of songs that were close offshoots from Steely Dan.

Anybody have any thoughts on this thread ?

Steveedan

C -if you«re awake - it's CalGustf (at least that's the way he spells it), but ... who cares?

Good night mr & mrs America (& all the ships at sea)

L

I'm rooting for the Bengals. Sure, they're playing the evil bizzarro-Browns (Ravens),

but...

I'm rooting for the Bengals. ?!

notyourKD

Sorry, but I certainly don't have any influence on Clas!
If there is one thing I will definitely say about him to his credit is that he, clearly, is his own man.

Maybe I'm stupid, but just what was Bill Murchison trying to say? He gave a nice recollection of history. Humor me. That's the nice thing to do.

Have we changed King now? Damn, I spend to much time on this American board. I thought our Kings name was Carl-Gustaf - am I wrong Lars? Thanx for the URL, Kinkys place is still there, I wrote a message on his Guestbook.

KinkySoNSo@aol.com

Q - cool man, I hate it when folks going ÓweÓ and ÓyouÓ. I'm not much for patriotism, but maybe I am taking the ÓsafeÓ Sweden for granted. And USA is a young nation, there's a difference there.

Blaise - a cat? Do you think I am so stupid that I would get another cat when Nisse finally died last year, or the year before, 18 years old?

Goodnight,

God, please bless USA, and if you have some bless-left-overs, please bless my Sternum too.

C

PS/ CYN - fattering up for a long winter, maybe it's so? Maybe that's the way to go, standing this long black winter who's approaching. Prophylaxis.

Q, since you seem to have some influence with Clas, can you please send him a private e-mail and ask him to exercise discretion and tone down his comments? There is no lack of free speech when the speaker is the one who does some appropriate self-editing before launching verbal SCUDs.

Bill Murchison

September 18, 2001

America 2001: Putting the '70s behind us

The "moral equivalency" crowd is in full cry, just as you'd expect. Crying the louder, maybe, given the unwelcome noise they can't drown out -- that public clamor for retaliation against the perpetrators of Sept. 11. The moral equivalency crowd has been instructing us for more than 30 years that we're no better ourselves than terrorists and Third World Communists and the like. It gets about that explicit. For instance, a University of Texas journalism professor, Robert Jensen, in the Houston Chronicle, suggests that Sept. 11 "was no more despicable than the massive acts of terrorism -- the deliberate killings of civilians for political purposes -- that the U.S. government has committed during my lifetime."

The Institute for Public Accuracy offers to put me in touch with Kevin Gray, "activist" and contributing editor to Black News in Columbia, S.C., who would like to communicate that "People who feel hopeless fly into buildings. And now we're going to get mad and kill them."

Even a former presidential candidate (the Libertarian Party's Harry Browne) asks solemnly when we'll figure out "that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually."

It's all our fault. If only we'd listened to the Chicago Seven and the Weathermen and those other noble foreign policy analysts who described our evil ways! "When will they ev-er LEARN? When will they EVVVV-er learn?"

Good question, Mr. Dylan, sir. We did in those bygone days swallow our lessons like good little boys and girls. Oh, less well-chewed and digested than our professors would have preferred. We didn't manage, post-Vietnam, to stamp out patriotism or withdraw from the fight against communism.

Two things we did walk away with:

1) The ability to think the worst of American methods and motives in foreign policy; such an ability as bears fruit in the inanities of Prof. Robert Jensen. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick, in the '80s, knew whereof she spoke when she castigated the homegrown experts who "always blame America first."

2) A massive case of the shakes and fidgets when it comes to action. If too much power had got us over our heads in Vietnam, why, clearly we had to move the opposite direction -- toward dramatic restraint in the use of power.

Thus, an old coot in Teheran kidnapped our embassy staff, and the best we as a people could do was tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree. Congress and the media took the intelligence community to the cleaners. A spy for the United States, as journalists and various politicians saw it, was a baser type than a male chauvinist.

Matters improved markedly during the Reagan years: We bombed Libya, occupied Grenada, and funded the Nicaraguan contras, so as to protect American lives and foreign policy interests. The Gulf War looked good until the first George Bush backed away at the moment of victory: further evidence of our reluctance to embrace power. Bombing-by-cruise-missile, at a suitably safe distance, became our preferred method of combating terrorism.

Today, in our present red-white-and-blue mood, a new intuition takes shape. It is that military power has legitimate uses; that the dominant duty of a nation is the protection of its own people. A government reluctant to look to that duty, wouldn't you think, is no government at all, just a network of bureaucrats and Jacks in office.

Things have gone so far that Americans permit their president to say things like: "When I take action, I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's going to be decisive."

Well. Insensitive in the extreme.

And don't you love it?

Thanks for your last post. We do, too.

anon lurker-wow. Thanks for that article. Some interesting points there.

Yes, it was in fact WWII that invited women (in droves) in the workplace as the men were off fighting the war. When women are needed for things other than housekeeping and baby building, seems like they come through, no? Well except for carrying 145 lb. dummies up or down stairs. Although I'm sure there are plenty of muscle-bound women out there who actually can. Maybe, they just aren't interested in dealing with the risks of being a firefighter. Also the job just doesn't pay a lot, if at all. It takes a certain kind of person to be willing to make mortal sacrifices for very, very little money. (Many hose companies are all volunteer, too.) My heart goes out to all of them. It is always helpful to make contributions to your local fire department.

Has there been an official use of the term "bombing" to describe the events of 9/11? Many people, news and otherwise, are using that term. I suppose one can say that the planes with all their fuel were used as "bombs."

Jon Bon Jovi grew up right around the corner from where I live now. I'm sure he spent many a time in NYC in his youth. Many artists make the city their home now, but he grew up knowing NY, I would imagine.

Just heard that Isaac Stern passed away. Another hero gone from our midst.

Clas, I realize that. Your okay in my book(for what that's worth!).

"United We Stand, Divided We Fall" - that means all of us here and globally, the way I see it.

I love all of you for your passion and dedication to the Dan, each other on this board, and clearly to life.

Q

C - try this:
http://members.aol.com/KinkySoNSo/home.html

L

It's Not Anti-American to see both sides of the Arguement

John Humphreys - UK Sunday Times - 23rd September

The phone call from the foreign editor came on December 23, 1972. I was at home in New York with my wife and two small children preparing for our first Christmas in a foreign country. There had been a big earthquake in Nicaragua and I was to get down there as soon as possible.

I caught a late flight to Miami, hitched a ride on a chartered Lear jet to Nicaragua and was there the next day. Christmas night was spent trying to sleep on the floor of a courtyard of a wrecked restaurant, rocking to the aftershocks of the earthquake and thinking of my family having to spend Christmas thousands of miles from home in a neighbourhood where they were total strangers. Foreign strangers at that.

At least I'd be back for the new year - or so I thought. When I left Nicaragua I flew to Panama en route to New York and learnt that a jumbo jet had crashed in the Everglades. My new year was spent reporting from a Florida swamp. I thought of the family again.

When I did finally get home there was nobody there. They were all at a neighbour's house. They'd scarcely been at home since I left: Christmas lunch with one family, New Year's Eve with another, one party after another, presents galore. The children had had a whale of a time and made dozens of new friends. Thirty years later, some of them are still friends. We lived in America for another six years, moving from one home to another, and found the same friendship and generosity everywhere.

I tell this story to illustrate what sort of people the Americans are. It will hardly come as news to anyone who has spent any time living in the States and there should be no need to state the obvious, to protest that one is not "anti-American" - especially, perhaps, at a time like this. Sadly, there is.

Last week I wrote about the attacks on New York and Washington. So did just about every other columnist who has ever put pen to paper. I was one of those who said it was important to understand what lay behind such terrorism at the same time as condemning its barbarity. The response to that approach has been extraordinary.

People like me are anti-American. We reckon they had it coming. We are the equivalent of Lenin's "useful idiots". We are doing the work of the terrorists, even.

None of that nonsense might matter if it were just the usual stuff of competing columnists in calmer times. We must all find something to fill the empty space week in, week out, and attacking a fellow hack is always a useful standby. Mostly there's nothing wrong in that; it's all good clean fun and we usually take ourselves far too seriously anyway. But it is grotesque to try to paint a yellow stripe down the spines of those who argue for the need to understand why men who can carry out such evil acts are able to muster the support they need.

It is even more absurd to suggest that such comments are somehow anti-American or even unpatriotic. Voltaire wrote: "It is lamentable that to be a good patriot we must become the enemy of the rest of mankind."

To argue that we somehow give comfort and encouragement to the terrorists is simply stupid. Unless, that is, you picture this scene as Osama Bin Laden scans the Sunday papers in his Afghan hideaway: "Excellent!" he says. "Many commentators in the United Kingdom are writing that the world is a complicated place. Clearly they are cowards. We must organise another atrocity at once!"

It must at least be worth considering that what such madmen want is for the West to attack every Muslim target they can find with as many bombers as they can muster. That creates the mayhem they seek. That sows the dragon's teeth.

Look, we are all scared - those who urge revenge and those who urge restraint - and we are all deeply worried about what may happen next. Anyone who's not is either a fool or an arms dealer. A friend told me this week that she holds her breath when the pips sound at the start of the radio news. She meant it literally. She breathes out with relief when the first thing the newsreader says is that someone or other is still talking rather than that the bombs have begun to fall.

Is she a coward, a useful idiot, a naive simpleton? None of the above. She is a mother with small children and she is afraid on their behalf. And the debate we should be having is not about who is more pro-American or more anti-American; it should be about which course of action is least likely to put them at risk.

I can understand people claiming that an all-out assault against the Taliban might work. The argument goes that the people of Afghanistan have been reduced to such a pitiful state that they will rise against the monsters who rule them. I happen to think that's wrong.

It is true that most ordinary Afghans have good reason to hate their rulers - especially the women. They have been treated diabolically - humiliated, denied education and even denied the services of gynaecologists. Muslim women are rarely seen by a male doctor and women are no longer allowed to train as doctors - or anything else, for that matter. The number of women and babies who die in childbirth is shameful.

All of that - and much more - makes it tempting to assume that the Afghans will unite with an invading force. But the last journalists to leave Afghanistan reported that, in spite of everything, the Taliban enjoys some popular support among the male population. Even if they did not, when bombs fall the people beneath them tend not to thank the bombers; they rally to their leaders - whoever they may be. But clearly there is a powerful argument for trying to get rid of the loathsome Taliban.

It might be possible to topple them and replace them with an interim administration under United Nations auspices. It is a seductive notion. But even if they were defeated, the Taliban and their supporters would not simply disappear. We cannot kill them all, nor lock them all up indefinitely. These are men who fought to gain power and would, we have to assume, fight to regain it.

It would require a vast international effort to maintain any semblance of order in that unruly country. It seems unlikely that the extremists would content themselves with taking the odd potshot at UN soldiers on patrol. The terrorists would claim another cause to fight for and another rallying cry.

And that assumes we win. What if we fail to wipe out the terrorists and fail to subdue the Taliban? The fighting could so destabilise a divided Pakistan that its military rulers will have power seized from them by extremist factions in their own country. We might then face the prospect of the extremists in control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Enemy soldiers armed with slightly rusting AK-47s, however tough and fearsome they may be, fighting in their own mountains, are one thing. An enemy armed with nuclear missiles is something else again.

All this may sound like defeatist scaremongering, but these are the sorts of arguments we should be having.

In the end the Americans will do what they will do. The polls suggest that the vast majority of them want to hit back hard against the people who caused such suffering. That is the most human, the most natural, reaction and that is their right. Equally, if Britain is to be their fully committed partner in this enterprise, people here are entitled to ask serious questions.

War is sometimes necessary. It often produces acts of great individual heroism. It may, in the end, deliver a better world. But it is always a foul business. And it is not us ageing, desk-bound commentators who will be called on to fight in it. We will be able to huddle in safety behind our word processors as our young men are sent off to face terrible dangers.

If - or when - that finally happens, we should all give them our unflinching support. But to turn the debate in the meantime into a puerile argument over who is anti-American and who is truly patriotic is wrong.

The Schwinn song is very good but it brings up the whole question of what is or isn't morally appropriate at this point in time. Would it get any airplay in the current context since it seems to thematize one person's routine daily grind turning into a free fall from the 80something floor? I doubt it. Nevertheless, the pop songwriting skills are evident here, especially in the chorus. Someone's done his homework.

and the Making Of Aja is a very decent hour of television that will change the way you listen to the album. The extensive, insightful talk while fooling around with the console is great stuff. The only weaknesses are the in-studio performances (but that's just because the rythmn section ain't what it used to be) and the oversight of I Got The News. Some moments are hilarious but I won't spoil the fun for those who haven't checked it out yet. A MUST.

Dragon, how does making fun of the president affect the victims in a negative way? Maybe some really do need a laugh at this point, who knows? Most probably, a few of them didn't like him to begin with and don't like him any better now for the way he handled this so far. I don't understand.
Wasn't this a free country?
Lisa G - I don't understand either. It's some people's expectations that are taken for facts in this case. If we have been critical in the past, we have been branded as "them". I remember deleting a whole lot of stuff lately for fear of hurting people's feelings and provoking a posting avalanche even though, all things considered, it was quite benign. Sensitivity level is still way up around here.

Clas - that dog looks like a whole lot of trouble. Get a cat.

To z of x -- I know that the work you do with your student musicians is not easy. I give you a lot of credit. Sometimes I feel like I am working with a bunch of childish musicians, not wanting to learn new arrangements, fighting over solos, oh, and low pay at a lot of these gigs. I don't do it for the money, since there isn't a lot of it. As you must also know, when the band plays a good performance of an arrangement that you wrote, it can really make your day. Sometimes it can erase all of the idiotic crap that went into the rehearsing leading up to that great performance.

I agree with whomever mentioned that Neil Young's pipe/pump organ goes back to his After The Gold Rush Days. It looked familiar to me. It must have been quite a schlep to get that organ into the Shrine Auditorium (if that was where the LA portion of the telethon was broadcasted from).

The Plush DVD has the 5.1 option. I don't have that capability at home, but I was at one of my vocalist's house and we watched a portion of it in 5.1 and it sounded great. He also has the audio DVD of 2VN and it sounded spectacular. I believe that Gaucho is available on DVD audio and I heard from a reliable source that Aja was being made on DVD audio too. It is not out yet - watch for it.

The making of Aja is a great DVD. There has been so much discussion here about the dubious quality of Brian Sweet book that I would side with the sane posters who discuss this here. (I may not be considered one of those, but I still like the DVD.) I found the Making of Aja DVD very interesting and as Angel said (Hi Angel ! Ain't it tough being me here lately ...) it is great to get a glimpse into the interaction of Donald and Walter and also to hear testimonials from various other musicians involved with the Aja album. I feel that it is a must-have for the serious Steely Dan fan. (Are any of those folks still coming here?)

Oh, and to Ali Oop - you're right. I am a freak. I am a Steely Dan freak. And also a music freak. And a piano/keyboard freak. Thanks to someone here who posted a note that Roger Nichols left on another site about the fact that Donald and Walter are indeed in the studio working on the follow up to 2VN, I went to that site and to my delight I found a forum specifically for keyboard players. Here is another reason why I really don't care what the crippled anons have to say about me. I have consistently learned things here that have enhanced my life and knowledge of various music-related things. This is what makes a place like this great. Some people just can't handle others making connections and getting some value out of this site when they are totally disenfranchised.

Holy Christ, maybe they were in on the attack on America !!! After all, they are certainly on the attack here.

A few people who post here, whom I have become friendly with, have been to a few of the Steely Fan Band gigs and have given us favorable reviews. At the end of every gig, I turn to my fellow band mates and say: "That was the best we have ever sounded, but we'll get better." A perfectionist is never satisfied.

I have been asked to record some keyboard tracks with some people who have worked with Michael McDonald, Skunk Baxter and Jim Hodder on a new project that they are working on. I must be one bad MF. Thank you for pointing that out, Alley OOP.

In closing, it's time for some SHAMELESS PLUGGING !!! (It seems like I have my own continuing column here !) The Steely Fan Band is playing the Manhattan Beach Fall Festival on Sunday October 7 from 2 - 4 PM. That's in a couple of weeks.

And as a PSA for the Doctor Wu band, The DR. WU-ers will be performing at 14 Below in Santa Monica on Saturday night, September 29.

I will be there. You have all been warned.

God Bless America.

Steveedan (MFM for the SFB)

Men of the Hour
Did somebody say ÒfiremenÓ?

Kate O'Beirne

"These men are fighting the first battle," Rudy Giuliani declared. "These are the men who will fight our wars," President Bush echoed during his visit to lower Manhattan. The mayor and the president weren't inspired by the city's "firefighters," they were talking about the firemen who raced into the burning towers that Tuesday morning, and their exhausted, bloodied, filth-covered brothers who desperately search the wreckage for a miracle. I wonder how many frustrated reporters searched just as desperately for a battle-scarred woman in uniform so there might be a pleasing politically correct Manhattan hero, but found only men doing the dangerous, demanding, dirty work of men.

Despite the attempts to integrate women into New York's fire department over the past 20 years, there are only 36 women in the 11,000-member force. A federal judge found in 1982 that the fire department's physical test for applicants improperly discriminated against women. Judge Charles Sifton ordered the department to water down the test and reserve up to 45 positions for women. One of the delighted female plaintiffs, who had failed the challenged test, explained, "I wasn't able to carry the dummy up and down a flight of stairs in the requisite amount of time, but I did very well on the mile run." The portion of the test that required carrying victims was eliminated, in favor of testing candidates on their ability to drag a 145-pound dummy along a marked path. Speaking of dummies, Judge Sifton had ruled that upper body strength was largely "irrelevant" to firefighting.

The fire department fought back in court, and every day in New York the current modified, but still-demanding, physical test proves its relevancy to the fearsome job of fighting fires. More than 40 percent of male applicants fail to make the requisite score on the present test. So, New York's Bravest remains 99.7 percent male.

The union defended its rigorous physical test from the feminist assault by arguing that the test discriminated against unqualified men and women alike. In contrast, the armed services surrendered to feminist demands. The military has adopted gender-normed scoring on physical tests and enlistment quotas to boost the number of women in the ranks. Kumbaya confidence courses have replaced ego-bruising obstacle challenges. Let's hope that stepstools will be provided for female soldiers in Afghanistan.

In the lull of peacetime, the extraordinary physical demands of combat became a less urgent concern for the world's sole remaining superpower. There is never a peacetime for the firemen of New York.

Is Kinky's homepage still there? It was half a year ago, if he is not with us anymore it would be shut down or?

I've lost the URL, does anyone have it?

C

the Stranger - Yes, ONE woman out of six or seven dancing people, or have you seen more than one film-clip of dancing Palestines?

And allow me to believe in what this Bernd Dšrler at the German week-magazine Stern is saying. He HAD time and resources to investigate that case.

Peace now,

C

Schwinn - yes, I have the same question as Angel.

Z - ÓThe Making of AjaÓ is great. There are interviews with Carlton, Old mac Donald, Parks, the Immortal, Katz, and the best, Rick Marotta's playing along with ÓPegÓ and talks about how he opened the hi-hat just a ÓhairÓ... ÓnuancesÓ... ÓI'd always DONE thatÓ... Óthis was the first time I could hear it on the record...Ó Marottas groove is so cool. He says that ÓPegÓ is one of the recordings he's most proud of.

And mc Donald is talking about the vocals on ÓPegÓ as a learning experience; ÓI mean, in how many different ways can you SING a particular word...Ó ÓI had a hard time staying in pitch...Ó.

But Gadd isn't there, and there's a strange interview with Wayne Shorter. I just don't get what he's saying.

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the Stranger - your intolerance scares me, really.

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Q - sorry, I couldn't know.

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Lisa G - well put.

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Gelding - big Stetson - no Cattle?

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JW Malibu - a PUMP ORGAN! Every classroom had on of those when I was small. And our family got one from some old aunt or something, she was a schoolteacher and died. I put a microphone in it and connected it to an amp. My pal played the drums (we where living in an apartment) the neighbors, whoa, they DID came out screaming.

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Cyn - thy... thyclaine... thyroid... no, we haven't checked that. And worms, wouldn't he loose weight? Thanks, Dragon too. We're giving him another fodder now (right word?), we'll see if that's better (and that's right Cyn, life is too short).

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Any idea how I can get in touch with Jackson Browne? I got this idea of a commercial:

Browne's singing:

-We went down to the animal hospital / vet says; -Pompe's six? That's impossible / it looks like he's... four.

Then a speaker:

Go for James Wellbeloved's Turkey & Rice Kibble! Your dog will jump for joy... without a parachut!

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Adieu and out,

C

angel, I tried to join "chat" (for the first time for a long time) but it ain't working for me. Oh well, talk with ya soon, DJ.

Schwinn: Any chance of getting to hear Twin Towers without signing up with MP3?

St. Al: A few hours ago, chat was down. I don't know if you fixed it yet, because I didn't check just now.

Oh Lord, can you find it in your heart to forgive this Faux Pas...w-z? No one in their right mind would have forgotten the always faithful Otterhound.....right mind....need I say more? I think that it explains it.

(Note to myself...add Otterhound to the list of Canine Maximus.)

Define slut.

Blaise Ð I think it is just a phase, it is out of respect for those effected by this tragedy not because we canÕt question the president or the like.

Lisa G Ð thank you for the essay on the fire-fighter statue; really quite moving.

Clas Ð Hilarious Clinton, lol. As for Pompe maybe he has a parasite? Sometimes they donÕt show up in tests. Maybe you should pick up a copy of ÒDr PitcairnÕs Complete Guide To Natural Health for Dogs and CatsÓ; my mom swears by it for her dog.

We are a society moving towards the reality that the only real difference between men and women is: women menstruate, gestate, and lactate and generally have more body fat for the aforementioned reasons; men fertilize an egg, they also generally have a larger body and more muscle mass. All other differences appear to be *socialized* into fruition. E.G. -- Around the turn of the 20th century it was believed that women were not suitable to be secretaries, it was a manÕs job. It was thought that women lacked the organizational skills necessary to file etc. Around the turn of the 21st century women make up 95% of that profession.

The tide turning of women flowing into the workplace occurred with WWII.

ÒNo society or species had ever tried it.Ó Ð I beg your pardon, it is quite obvious that you have not studied anthropology at all, and know very little of the animal kingdom. I suggest you take a look at the lion ÒkingdomÓ. And a cross cultural study of work showed that the only exclusively male trade was whale hunting and the only predominantly female work was infant care. It has been mostly men who have written history and even pioneered fields such as archeology and therefore it has been documented with male prejudice.

As for women buying Òugly sexless suitsÓ, and Òdoing boring things with their hairÓ it has generally been gay men who decide what womenÕs fashions are as well as what a fashionable woman looks like (i.e. Ð those skinny hipless, flat-chested females that are taller than the average male).

On polygamy Ð why call it polygamy when it is almost always polygyny and almost never includes polyandry?

ah, so there are no eskimos in sweden. exactly my point. you swedes must have murdered them. too bad i don't have time to investigate.

as for the dancing palestinians, a stupid broadcaster finds ONE plaestinian woman who tells her it was all a fake and you fucking believe it? for crist's sake, arafat says he's not a terrorist. you believe that too? he also swore off all violence to achieve political ends, for which he got a nobel prize. the egyptians say their suicidal pilot who murdered an entire planeload of innocents couldn't have done it because he's muslim. saudi arabia is our pal, a MODERATE arab regime. but they do not allow non-muslim services. they allow in a limited number of christians, but they are not allowed to worship. no jews are allowed into the country. i know a secret catholic priest who had a secret church there. some people are tolerant only when they are in the minority. when they get control, all talk of tolerance is history.

try your hippie-dippie ways in afghanistan. they'll broil you on a spit.

Sociable, that guy who liked Wyclef Jean would be me -- W1P. I believe what he was trying to do was to reach out to people watching in Brooklyn and Manhattan and get them to sing along at home. Although the gesture may have been misguided (and I'm not sure it was), I don't think it detracted from the performance. But that's just one reporter's opinion. I've been reading some newsgroups and comparing reactions to various songs/performances. One of the interesting things out there is that people in the Springsteen newsgroup were "blown away" by Wish You Were Here. People in the Floyd newsgroup hated it. I thought the Bon Jovi performance was very Mellencamp. I really liked Alicia Keys. But remember, I admitted here once to liking Creed, so my cred is less than zero. Peace all.

Simultaneous posting? Hi angel! :)

z-Dig the rhythm section and don't sweat it with the horns. You're a pro and the kids will come through. Keep on telling them to listen, listen, listen to each other. And to Bob Curnow's big band. So B-Sisters will be vocal? Cool. Let me know when and if outsiders can come. I'm anxious to hear your kids play.

I haven't played a wedding gig in years myself. Actually, that's a lie, because my band did one wedding last year, but we did our book and took NO REQUESTS.. There was a guy at the wedding from Bard College who rather appreciated MOS. But the deal was no deviation from our normal set material. I don't care much for the sterile private party scene, too. Although, I do rather enjoy living out my fantasy playing elevator music during dinner. (Yes, yes as a kid I wanted to be a studio musician and aspire to play so well that I could read it down and put it on tape. I always heard that at the fadeouts the musicians would go to town and play something interesting. I used to stick my head up to the speakers and listen for mistakes, too. Wait, did I have any friends?

Mu-thanks for the skinny on this journalist dude's POV. I am reading with great interest.

Glad the REAL Q checked in....

JW Malibu: Thanks for the info on the organ. I only saw it in one shot, but it was impressive.

z/x: Yes, the DVD has 5.1 sound. Quite impressive, except for us who only have stereo. Somehow, we loose a bit in the translation.
Making Aja is a MUST HAVE. Don't listen to Brian Sweet. Who cares what he says. It is an awesome piece of business that really looks into the minds of the 2 men who are Steely Dan. The music is strictly secondary to the behind the scenes glimpses you get, of how it must be when the record together. That synenergy, they have always had, seen firsthand.

St. Al: Got your package. Thanks so much. :-)

Anyone see yesterday that Bush thanked Canada for all their help on the 11th?

Good evening all....

Cyn- How dare you mention big dogs and not include the noble Otter Hound? My 9 month-old pup weighs about 120lbs. and is tall enough to steal supper from the dinner table without having to jump at all.
LG- I taped Plush from Ch. 13, but I just bought a DVD Player and now I'm wondering if I get the DVD, will I get it in 5.1 channel sound? Anyone know? The "Making of Aja" tape, according to Brian Sweet is a lot of bullshit. He said that most of the performances were actually done in 1999 or so with only the original rhythm section- Purdie and Rainey, and supplemented with Herington and others from their last tour.There were some interviews with the 2 boyz at the recording console, but no Gadd and Co.!
We played Babylon Sisters with just the rhythm section and a flute player and the guys in the rhythm section seem to like it, which is extraordinary considering the taste of the average adolescent today. My bass player plays with a better feel and time than both of the professional bass players I've been working with lately and the drummer is grooving too (his last name is Cabbagestalk!).
However, next week, when the horns get a hold of it, I'll be painfully reminded who I'm working with, but, that's what I'm getting paid for.
The bop chorus is unisons interrupted by syncopated chordal writing on the sustained notes, ala Rob McConnell, but I'm not expecting it to sound too good for a while. I've been playing the melody, but I'm trying to hunt down this effeminate, Puerto Rican, Jehovah's Witness kid who sang the shit out of our production of "Damn Yankees" last year (in which I played all the piano parts on guitar because the piano players in my school are assholes).
I'm getting tired of playing "America the Beautiful" and "God Bless Vespuci-land" on gigs lately, even if it is well-meaning.
Music transcends this petty world we live in, especially if I'm high on deludin (actually, only if I'm high on deludin). When this happens, I long to break out into the Pointed Sisters hit:
"I'm Su-i-ci-dal
And I just can't hide it
I'm about to kill myself
and I think I like it!
that we used to sing when a gig gets particularly obnoxious. Thank God I haven't played a wedding gig in over a year! I'm finally making enough to play just jazz and big band gigs for the rest of what passes to be my life.

Is Pakistan a major root of the Taliban evil. Pakistan has taken steps to expand their influence for many years. It has nukes as well. This is constistent with the fact the the Taliban are mostly Pakistani, not Afghan. A revelaing article concerning the late? Massud, leader of the Northern Alliance:

"IN THE LAIR OF THE LION
INTERVIEW WITH COMMANDER AHMED SHAH MASSUD
by A. Raffaele Ciriello

Darqad, northern Afghanistan

Three gas lamps delineate the uncertain contours of the landing zone and the helicopter, an old Russian MI8 which must have known better times lands in the twilights of this remote sector of northern Afghanistan among the Amu Darya's affluents, some 30 minutes flight far from Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan.
Commander Ahmed Shah Massud, Afghan Defense Minister and single strongest opponent of Red Army before and Taleban now, greets us wearing an immaculate shalwar kalmeez, the Afghan traditional dress with a long tunic opened down to the knee over wide linen pants.
Four years have elapsed since our last encounter on front line north of Kabul, in a busy fighting day when Taleban gained some ground which they would give it back to Massud's combatants within a few days.

Not long ago, the northern stronghold of Taloqan has fallen, stormed by the "Koran students" after a long siege. What is the current military situation?
The recent attack to Taloqan is only the final stage of an offensive which started at the beginning of summer when Taleban's number two, mullah Rabbani [no ties with the afghan recognized president, the tajik Burhanuddin Rabbani] has received from Pakistan president Musharraf more than 10,000 combatants, including 2000 regulars from Islamabad's Army.
One thousand men from "Al Quaida", the militia of Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi billionaire and several more volunteers coming from Arabia, Bangladesh or the Philippines also joined in.
The first offensive, under the command of the Pakistani brigadier general Sayed-ul-Zafar, took place on Shomali plains, straight north of Kabul, at the end of June.
At that time, we were able to push back six different attacks, giving them heavy losses - more than 500 dead and several thousand wounded - as confirmed by our intelligence in Kabul's hospitals.
The commander in chief, brigadier general Ershad was wounded as well. In this first stage, the support guaranteed from Pakistan proved truly effective; for the first time we had to confront armored forces maneuvering with great tactical skill.
After the second round of talks in Pakistan, the Taleban attacked our weaker position.
In the following weeks, they smashed to the north, in Tahrin and Inkamish, overtaking our dispositions in Bangi and getting finally close to Taloqan, where fighting went on for 33 days.
We had to face two Pakistani brigades plus an artillery battalion under commanders Afshad and Moonir. The underlying reason for their rage exactly at that time was the approaching of UN General Assembly where the Taleban would express official demand of recognition.
In Taloqan, therefore, I preferred sparing civilians the horror of an utmost defense and I ordered to withdraw. During the siege, we lost about 300 men. It was a well-planned withdrawal though and we left nothing behind for the enemy, not even one rounds case [evidences collected from direct witnesses confirm this aspect].
Enemy's losses were huge, about 2000 dead; Pakistanis alone suffered 70 dead and approximately 1800 wounded. Renowned colonel Jamil fell, too. He was commemorated a few days later at the Army Stadium in Peshawar, where he was remembered for his death as an hero... in Kashmir!!
This offensive, supported by huge military efforts to end the games before winter, went on in the following weeks, after the deploymwnt in Taloqan of nearly 15.000 men. The Taleban spearheads moved northeast up to the Kokcha river, where they were finally stopped. [we witnessed the Taleban's breakthrough on the front of Awar Soy, during the last phase of this offensive].
We know for sure the Pakistanis have supplied small boats, located in this moment in Charasyab which could be used for raids against us or even over the Amu Darya river, towards Tajikistan or Uzbekistan. In recent days, moreover, our sources informed us our adversaries are planning to attack Badakshan province [the last the United Front is in full control of]. The offensive could start straight from Dora Pass in Pakistan territory, where in fact they have already poured, through Chitral region, 2000 men, 1500 of which regular from Pakistan Army.

What are you doing to make international public opinion aware of the Pakistani support to your opponents?
It is a situation already obvious to everyone. Last summer, gen. Parwez Musharraf, through an interview with BBC radio, guaranteed the Taleban all material support they could possibly need to end this game. The Pakistanis, fearing to be blamed by the international community for this interference, decided to make the maximum effort to get rid of us before the winter. Shortly ago, EU representatives in Pakistan discovered classified reports, as drafted from western diplomatic sources, that would prove undeniably the employment of regular troops from Islamabad side by side with the Taleban.
Notwithstanding, UN just accused Kabul's regime for human rights violations. We have provided many times the UN with names and figures of the Pakistani military deployed on Afghan land and captured, and with all the details and whereabouts of their capture. We did supply also plates numbers of vehicles transporting arms and ammunitions inside Afghanistan from Pakistan, pretending to be humanitarian convoys. Recently, also tanks have been ferried this way.

What is going on with peace negotiations? Are You still supporting the institution of a Loya Jirga?
I spoke over the telephone with Mullah Omar, not that long ago. First he accepted my proposal to have democratic elections, then he changed his mind, thinking this wouldnÍt fit well with the true spirit of Islam. We will never acknowledge the United Emirates of Afghanistan [new denomination from the Taleban regime for the former Islamic Republic of Afghanistan] and our adversaries are well aware of this. Instead, we are ready to support free elections, after the institution of a Loya Jirga (democratic assembly with representation of all the ethnic groups).
Our message to the Taleban is clear: if they are truly relying, as they state, upon the unconditioned support of the Afghans and above all the Pashtun ethnics, the largest in number, why do they keep on rejecting free and democratic elections? Why do they continue fighting when they are aware that, without the continued support of Pakistan, they could not last a week, notwithstanding the huge quantity of arms and means at their disposal, including Bin Laden's 3500 men?

How would you like to manage, in a near future, the thorny issue of Bin Laden? After all, the United States have never proven any evidence of his involvement in the terrorist attacks he is commonly tied to.
Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist and will be treated as such. A complex network of interests ties him since long to the Taleban and straight to their leader Mullah Omar, who has married one of the daughters of Bin Laden.
We know for sure that Al-Quaida [The Base, fighting group founded and sponsored by the Saudi billionaire] deploys on Afghan soil nearly 3,500 men under commander Abu Koubab. There is no external pressure that could persuade Mullah Omar to give Bin Laden out to an international court. And it is exactly what we will do, if circumstances will allow us to.

The aspect perhaps most criticized of the Taleban government is that of the human rights and the evident violations, markedly for women. What is Your opinion?
During 1994-1996, under the government of President Rabbani in Kabul, the maximum effort was completed to achieve respect and integration for ethnic and religious minorities. Women at that time, apart from being granted unconditioned access to instructions, could approach every profession. This is the system that we wish to reinstate again, starting with free elections with universal suffrage, one head one ballot. I haven't ceased dreaming for my daughters of a free life in their free country.

Recent offensives, and mostly those on the Shomali plain north of Kabul, caused an impressive number of refugees. What is the situation with them?
Total figures for refugees go up to about 150,000.
Many of them are based now in Panshir valley, and most of these come from Shomali area. Already in 1998 and 1999 they had fled their houses during summer advance of the Taleban, who destroyed villages and cultivations. Then we have the recent flood of about 19,000 refugees, moving north after the collapse of Taloqan. They know well the rule of Kabul's masters and have much better preferred to flee. With few exceptions - Acted of France - international humanitarian organizations are still missing, especially in northern Afghanistan. Next coming winter could be truly hard for these refugees. The traditional hospitality of other Afghans, who are glad to host many of these families in the villages closest to refugee camps helps, but is far from enough and the number of refygees is getting huge. It is definitely urgent for the international community to take care of them soon.

Aren't You afraid the Taleban regime could finally get recognized by the UN, after they control nearly 95% of Afghan territory now?
No, we are much confident this won't happen. Violation of most essential human rights is too obvious, markedly regarding women. Not to mention opium cultivation and smuggling, which allows our enemies, together with donations from Pakistan and Bin Laden as well, to fund a very expensive war.

Very expensive war, indeed. And You, how can You fund Yours?
Since long, we take profit of lapis-lazuli mines in Panshir valley, and also we are printing currency to purchase warfare on all available markets.
[Panshir is a legendary, vertical rock-walled valley, located northeast of Kabul, originating from the buttress of the Hindu Kush which then turns into the roots of the Himalaya range.
Commander Ahmed Shah Massud, born in the village of Jangalak in 1953, has made Panshir his impregnable shelter. Still examined in military strategy textbooks, are seven unfruitful offensives by the red Army aimed to annihilate the Lion of Panshir, during the invasion. The last impressive attempt in 1984, after deploying more than 50,000 men, tank and fighter bombers Sukhoi and Tupolev, would evoke, as reported in the weekly magazine Time "the admiration of Gengis Khan".
Regarding currency, we testified the arrival in Afghanistan of suitcases of fresh Afghanis from Tajikistan. This currency adds to the Afghanis printed by president Rabbani in 1994-1995, and to those printed at the same time by general Rashid Dostum, Uzbek warlord, then opposing Rabbani-Massud coalition, and finally to the currency the Taleban are having currently printed in Sweden. Common goal is to damage the economy of the opposing parties and guarantee at the same time one's own. The local exchange rate was recently equal to 66000 Afghan for one dollar].

Not that long ago, it was the fourth anniversary of the arrival of the Taleban in Kabul. At that time, you fled the city with your men without shooting a single round. Would you have done the same if you had known that four years later You would have been confined in such a small pocket of territory or don't You think perhaps You should have confronted the incoming Taleban?
No, I am still convinced it was a clever decision. The arrival of the Taleban in Kabul's outskirts was totally unexpected; a last-minute defense would have meant to tear apart the city and to exact an unbearable toll of victims among civilians.

How healthy is the United Front (the multiethnic anti-Taleban alliance)? The defection of commanders to the enemy with all their men seems to be daily routine...
The United Front is compact and just petty commanders happen to defect. It's the Taleban who have been losing in recent times the support of ethnic Pashtun commanders of Pashtun ethics in the north [the Pashtun is the dominant ethnic group in the southeastern Afghanistan, cradle of the Taleban]. Commander Arit was recalled in Pakistan and assassinated there. The same happened to Bashir Baghlani who was arrested. DonÍt forget that this is not a war of religion. People are spontaneously opposing to the politics and ideology of the Taleban. And we are ready to open new fronts. Inshallah, before winter, Taloqan will be in our hands.
[In the next following days after this interview Commander Massud met in Mashad, Iran, the uzbek warlord general Rashid Dostum, who can rely upon many followers in northern Afghanistan (20,000 alleged of them in Samangan province only) and Ismail Khan, former governor of Herat (1992-1995) and Major General in the Afghan Army, who got renowned after leading the mutiny of the garrison in Herat, during early resistance to the Soviets. Imprisoned by the Taleban in Kandahar in 1997, Ismail Khan could flee earlier this year and reach Iran. Dropping apart their past grudges, the three leaders seem to have found an agreement to intensify joint military operations against Taleban].

The falling night with its long shadows allows us just one more question. A few months ago, a Taleban jet was reportedly downed by Massud's men with an anti-aircraft Stinger missile, the first one ever used since many years. We ask if this couldnÍt be considered as a sign of imminent military recovery. The US-made Stinger surface to air missile was deployed on the Afghan theatre first in 1986, gaining a well-earned reputation as the cornerstone single weapon which would finally drive the red Army out of the country three years later. This kind of things, in Afghanistan, doesnÍt get forgotten easily.
At my question, a flash bursts through Commander Massud's eyes. One second later, he is smiling at me.

A.Raffaele Ciriello
English translation kindly revised by Mrs. Francine Pierce"

Jimmy my friend, first of all its Mormon with an "o" and only one wife allowed.

Secondly, polygamists are to Mormons what Bin Laden is to Islam. Polygamists have their own interpretations of the religion but are not Mormons technically (having been ex-communicated or never have beens) or in name as most have their own church names like "Lamb of God" etc. Polygamy was outlawed in Utah in the 1890's but still thrives in an underground sort of way.

Thirdly, if you can get Lily to join you, they are always looking for new recruits but be warned, the old men may take her away from you and marry her themselves.

Finally, ifyou ever make it out this way, look me up. 8^).

GE

Hi everybody--just thought I'd let you know I've recorded a song about the 9/11 terrorism attacks. It's available to download or in streaming audio at: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/310/faradays_dog.html

Keep the Faith and Peace to All,

Schwinn

Gelding: Have I got a place for you! The longer the beard, the smaller the...

http://www.ciriello.com/46women1.html

I know a number of female Biochemists and Physiologists who have no trouble competing with the big boys! A couple are the Bomb to boot.

Having said that class warfare and unisex thought have always been counterproductive. People's merits should be treated on an individual basis. But, there *are* some things as a guy I don't need to know or see. It must be a blessing to be here in Texas (if what you waid was actually true - which it's not) where we can tell the men from the women. Keeps the livestock safe as well...

Neither can I think of one good reason to have women in combat. Soldiers are not policemen. They are warriors that work as a unique bonded unit designed to make the other poor bastards die for their cause (to crudely paraphrase Patton) while protecting our citizens. Besides, no civilized country would consciously offer up even one woman to the Taliban (see above). There are genetic/evolutionary reasons - they have the eggs...

Gratuitous Seinfeldism: Lastly, what is up with men that shave their chest? None of them look like Schwarzegneggar.

Yeah that *#* really stands for *schwiiing!*, hey jimmy? What if it's a guy, one of those girlie men? Sounds like a chick. Whatever.

Cyn- Why so mad at Colin? He said "ugly as sin" not "ugly as Cyn". And you're right, life is WAY to short to deal with assholes like Clas.

Steeveedan- You're a freak. Oh, and by the way, after watching your last gig I can also say you're a really bad musican as well. Stick to the 9-5 job BABY!

Get me to Salt Lake City quick!

I'm in need of Morman clergy for induction, so that I can have two wives.

Lily, promise me you'll wait. I've fallen in love with a post...

Ever wonder why masculine men are dying out -- the old strong, silent type who rolled cheroots one-handed while roping dogies with the other -- and being replaced by delicate androgynous Ken-dolls who look like Tinkerbell with a flat chest? Or why women look increasingly . . . not masculine so much as sexless?
Tell you what I think.

(I'll bet that surprises you.)

Used to be, men and women were different, and they knew it. They weren't in competition. So a guy could be Marlboro Man, or sort of anyhow, and grunt, and stand tall in the saddle, and say, "Hoo-ahhhh!" and ride Harleys. And if anybody messed with his kids or women, he'd take a tire iron to'em, or a thirty-thirty, depending--or at least imagine that he might. He had sense enough, anyway, to know that it was a good idea.

Back then, a woman could like a big hairy-chested hunk, because she wasn't competing with him. In fact, the hairier and chesteder he was, the better, because she was vying with her girlfriends to see who could get the manlier man. And a lot of women liked the idea of 240 pounds of muscle in a Stetson that meant to take care of them.

She meanwhile could afford to be cute, feminine, and curved, and dress like a woman, and maybe wield a gorgeous smile that she used to play him like a banjo -- which he probably knew, and figured that was OK too, because that's how things worked, and anyway guys are guys. She didn't have to out-hairy him. She wasn't trying to be a guy.

East was east, and west was west, and the twain would meet at the drop of a hat.

Then everything changed. Women decided they wanted to compete with men. OK. I can understand it. If I were a woman with an IQ of 160, I'd probably want to be a biochemist instead of child-herd and doily-polisher. The idea seemed reasonable to most women, and to most men. A kajillion gals poured into the workplace.

Thing was -- and nobody had really thought this out -- they didn't expect to compete on their merits as individuals, get as far as they got, and figure that was the hand God dealt them. They wanted to duke it out head-to-head, self-consciously and avowedly, as a class, with men. It wasn't Sally wrestling with the law boards. It was Us agin Them.

Which was a Whole Nuther Thing. No society or species had ever tried it.

Problems arose. Fact is, men are hard to compete with. Physically, they are taller, heavier, much stronger, more durable and more enduring. Except for nymphet gymnastics, there may be no sport in which women hold the record. Intellectually men have a large advantage mathematically and a slight one verbally at the high end, that becomes rapidly greater as one moves to the right of the mean; This is the Glass Ceiling. Men are more aggressive, exploratory, adventurous, and versatile. Sorry, but there it is.

Women moved up some, and some moved up a lot, but they didn't catch up numerically with men. It was because they couldn't, and that's a pretty good reason. And when you got down to it, women just didn't care enough. They had other things on their minds, like families and rugrats.

They didn't quite understand this. Nobody did. All women wanted, they said early on, was to be judged by the same standards as men. It was a bad idea. If I judge Cup Cake as a woman, I note that she is sleek, smart, funny, graceful, sweet as sorghum on a Moon Pie, and dances like a dream raised in Arkansas. I'm smitten.

If I judge her as I judge men, she's an emotionally unstable dwarf. How much respect am I supposed to have for a 5'3" guy who bench presses a twenty-ounce Pepsi?

Antagonism inevitably ensued. Men said that the ladies didn't want to be women, and couldn't be men. Why, they asked each other, did a first-rate woman want to be a second-rate man? The women said men were bigoted. Men said they were just observant. Women, who had always regarded men as commitment objects and pre-med objects, became enraged that men regarded them as sex objects. Men were puzzled. They didn't know what else to regard as sex objects.

I was confused myself. I remember a woman screaming at me, "Women don't want to be objects!" Trying to be conciliatory, I said, "OK, you can be subjects." That didn't suit her either.

They don't know what they want. And that's the problem.

They got angry and developed chips on their shoulder pads. War ensued, in which women raged and men didn't know what the hell was going on. When natural ability failed, women discovered, politics would serve. And so we got affirmative action, which means, "pretending."

Depending on the venue, the women needed very little or lots of pretending. The military was worst. It pretended either that women could climb obstacles, or that wars didn't involve obstacles. Soon soldiers discovered that most women couldn't throw a grenade beyond its bursting radius. This will make you unpopular on battlefields. Besides, a woman throwing a grenade looked like a sea lion waving its flipper. So the Army built a little wall for them to drop grenades over.

It was ridiculous. It is ridiculous. Affirmative action always is. Nobody is fooled. Still, it spread like peanut butter on a hot day. For those women who didn't like men anyway, it was sweet revenge. Except -- it wasn't quite. The men knew, and the women knew they knew. On the other hand, the checks cashed.

Intuitively women knew they had to push for unisex. To compete with men, women had to act like men, who are competitive, and get men to behave like women, who aren't. They bought ugly sexless suits, did boring things with their hair, and practiced being disagreeable, often succeeding wildly. Meanwhile the media, fronting for them, went in for pretty male models who waxed their chests and weren't threatening. The compassionate man emerged like a grub from a log.

The women won. Marlboro Man, or anybody too clearly of one sex or the other, is out of style. Both the New-Age woman, and her docile man-surrogate, would be intimidated, and ol' Marlboro would have trouble knowing which was the girl. God it's boring.

I find them much easier to like / myself.

Anons inspire trust ?

ay ay ay ay ay

Steveedan - How many times have you apologized already for responding. And respond you will again, even though you promised before that you wouldn't, time and again. You know why? Because you LIKE it. You like being insulting and wrestling anons online. Admit it! You LOVE it! It's obvious to anyone but yourself. No more denial! Face your pathological behavior head on, stevee. Ha!

Angel ~ The keyboard that Neil was playing was a pump organ, probably about 100 years old or so...it's been part of his signature sound since "After the Gold Rush". Playing one of those suckers is a good workout!

You all make no sense at all. You deserve each other.

Nothing that you say attacks me. Your words are meaningless.

Anyone who can muster a meaningful thread of any kind (hopefully, music, take your political discussions elsewhere) I might be inclined to post a response. You may now continue to banter amongst yourselves.

Steveedan

I meant knowledge of people in general.

Ie, instead of seeking for "consistency of identity" or "reliability" so you can build up "expectations" of someone and HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.. in other words instead of worrying about whether YOU can TRUST someone, worry instead about whether you are someone who INSPIRES TRUST. Conveniently, this is most readily accomplished by demonstrating your LACK of concern with TRUSTING THE OTHER. (And no, not everyone can be god at once ;-) cf. my earlier statements on the "necessity of difference" )

How do you get knowledge of people who are anons ?

anonymous

Babe, to many here you ARE anonymous, and your pretension at "building an identity" appears to many, for many reasons, as so much groveling. And then you don't expect derision or ridicule?

It's a very dicey business to call attention to yourself explicitly without opening yourself up to attack on these grounds. In this culture, you "step out" only at risk of seeming the fool -- and you better damn well pay proper attention to who and how you're harming as you carry it off. If you do it right, you might end up famous and rich. If you pull it off REALLY right, you might end up famous and dead. And if you pull it off PERFECTLY, you might end up a god. hehe ;-)

Now, until you understand that, what people are telling you is: STOP PULLING IT OFF!

should read, "vocal" exercises.

Sorry.

Herm

Whoever it is who is preaching about mean-spiritedness not being possible if everyone is unfamilar with each other (which definitely is not true here for many posters), and then contradictics themself by bring up self-esteem, for some whacky reason,

Why not meet me in chat, in real time, and let's see who's got real guts and who doesn't.

I am not responding to any more of this crap here. It's too easy for you anons to hide. God forbid you are ousted.

What would you do then?

Steveedan

Jon Bon Jovi?

My understanding of it was there were so many artists that were asking to contribute to the show that many of them had to be turned away. If Bon Jovi made the cut, I'd hate to see the list of people that didn't. Come on, there had to be somebody somewhere better than that. And, for my money, the only reason to have him on the show is to sing, "Wanted Dead Or Alive".

And I have to disagree with those who said that Wycleff Jean was good. The guy was standing on an empty stage and asking an imaginary crowd to sing with him. ("Sing it with me Brooklyn... Come on Manhattan"). I know the old cliche about stoned rastas, but, considering the circumstances, the guy could have waited to toke up until after the show.

And Paul Simon needs to spend some time doing voavcl warm-ups before a performance. It was painful hearing him straining for those high notes.

Sting picked a great song.

A Canadian to sing "God Bless America"?

Do you think that performance wiped out Willie Nelson's tax problems for a while?

I don't know, I guess maybe my old cynical self has finally resurfaced.

Later,

Herm

To all those who have some sense of sensativity and moral responsibility -

I apologise to the rest of you who had to read my flaming post of the stupid anon called Colin Powell.

I find it very tiring to read all of the rediculous posts (including my last one, and many of Clas', who is capable of better output - shame on you Clas) when the main reason that I come here is to share in a global community of Steely Dan and music fans.

The rest of the anon (or whomever) posts that are so negative just make a bad situation worse. So to those of you who's goal is to achieve this, you've got it too good ... quit while you are ahead. Someday, a life changing event might happen to you (wasn't the bombing enough of a bad event for you all?) that could change everything.

I don't wish anything bad on any of you (though some of you might be deserving of it). I try to work on keeping my side of the street clean, in ways that I will not divulge here.

I try to think of things that are constructive to post here when I do post, though sometimes I fail at it.

Some of you may not like my sometimes silly playful style of humor, but it's not negative.

I challenge you to try for better.

And for the record, I have never posted anonymously. And I never will.

Steveedan

But Stevee it's not ABOUT "mean spirited." Nor should ANY posts here be assessed on those terms. Judgments about such things can only be made by intimates; basically those in a position to be 'known' by a person.

You can't hurt what you don't understand. This is part of the rational for anoning: STOP TRYING TO IDENTIFY TARGETS, either for praise or blame. Get your self-esteem ELSEWHERE -- and ideally NOT from PEOPLE, but from KNOWLEDGE of people. Good luck.

More later on these FNN stations.

I love ya, Steveedan.........you know who.

Oh God, it will never end...

Hi stupid asshole anon named Colin Powell -

Let's not mince words. You are a spineless piece of shit.

Reread that last line until your f*ckin' eyes bleed. Then go F*ck yourself.

You wrote -- "... you get people like steveedan who are just a complete imbeciles."

The mere fact that you take exception to anything I choose to write, none of which is mean spirited (like this post to you, asshole) makes you an imbecile (not inbeciles, you putrid excrement).

By the way I am not enraged by your weak little innocuous stab at me. Besides, I believe that I washed you off the sidewalk of the yellow brick road after Clas walked his dog there.

You and those like you have no original thoughts. The best effort you can muster is to look at what others write and try to belittle it for your own enjoyment. Stick to watching wrestling. After all for you and your like, it is the real thing.

By the way, in case you did not let it sink in -- fuck off.

Steveedan

Good Lord, Get a grip......of yourself.

No, I haven't had the displeasure of seeing or witnessing a woman not give a shit about her children. BUT...neither am I naive enough to know it doesn't happen.

All I know is...threaten my children or my neighbors children, be prepared to be taken down.

Quit being so damn Paranoid!

Yes, bring on the JUJU. Chere knows how to be.

I would like to know just what Clas and for that matter, Gina or Blaise, said in posts slamming the U.S. since the attacks. I couldn't really find anything after reading through the posts twice. Could someone (anon or anyone) please cut and paste so that the money could be at the location of the mouth. I'm sure someone will flame me, as I expect from such people who choose to be cowards. But I would really like to know just what was exactly said so that I can understand any justification of this ill-will toward fellow GB-er's.

I know I myself have been defensive in the past, by this is something I am working on daily. Also, I myself have been awfully opinionated concerning this country, perhaps even negatively. This is something I am grappling with as a citizen, but I won't abandon a place where I am free to say what I wish. I'm glad to be here.

I am also glad to be on this GB. It is a home, if you will, to many and not unlike the U.S. in its diversity. But the folks in the U.S. are mostly tolerant of people's differences of opinion. Why can't we behave this way here, all inclusively? Why do we always have the belittlers, the bigots, the insulters all posting trash because they feel safe behind this little yellow screen? Why do they hide in their little foxholes and bomb away at a safe distance? Why do people get so defensive of words that may be strong, but are not intended to hurt, and then complain and "retaliate" in hurtful phrases?

It's all about power. Words are powerful. They can hurt you, help you, make you think, arouse you to action, but mostly they are all powerful. If you choose to ignore something on purpose are you not paying at least "some" attention to it? Why should you have to ignore anything? We are all students of life. It's going on around here and everywhere else. There's no escaping it. We feel it, eat it, react to it, but do we ever really ignore it? (Soapbox Moment) I say don't ignore. I say educate. Surely we all have something meaningful to teach the world. Perhaps some people here will choose to finally grow up. Maybe the world will take a cue from us, then.

To paraphrase R. Ferrell, "How can there be peace in the world when there's none at home?"

HA!

Section Political Science
New Releases:
"The Pussification of the World", Anonymous, Penguin, 2001.
Ha!

...rule the cradle... of civilization too, that is! ;-)

The fact that you CAN make a list of "powerful" women proves the point. No such list of powerful men is feasible: THERE ARE TOO MANY TO LIST!!!!

And in any event, the point is MEN ARE THE EXEMPLARS for women. These powerful women ARE powerful as judged on the standards -- the UNIVERSAL STANDARDS of power -- that MEN have defined for all time.

As stated however, it is an open question as to whether the male "gender" will continue to disproportionately occupy those places. At the current rate of pussification, it is quite possible that women will end up surpassing men in positions of power. But even then these people -- women by name, by gender -- will NOT BE FEMININE -- "fascinating" in the way "femininity" is. We will have a country of Janet Renos and Hillary Clintons, bereft of Jennifer Lopez's. And by that time, even your periods will disappear.

Oh and have YOU seen the look on a women's face when NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT HER CHILD? Just one look would BORE the shit out of any rational human being. Sucker indeed.

I can atest to Q's opinion of Chere.......

just got off of the phone with her....I FEEL better already! Soft spoken...and easy, Soothing, I feel the Juju already...2nd dose comes tomorrow.

Whoaaaa!!!!!!!!!

I just recvd an email about "my" posting on the GB and I can only say that the phantom poster spells too well to be me!!

I have not posted since the day of the terror asking about Pet,Shari,YGK and others because I am too swamped with famil, work,and mourning the loss of 3 personal friends in this horror.

Clas, I did not post that to you. I don't have time for these games anymore. Nor do I have the enrgy. I wish I did.
I am amazed though at how much time so many here DO have to devote to this board.

I think whomever suggested that the board should be renamed for Clas somehow may be correct. To no fault of St. Al's, the board seems to ceding it's claim to being a Steely Dan Guestbook to the "Blue Pages".

Finally Clas, I have never been to Knoxville, I don't own a banjo, and my ancestors emmigrated from Germany in 1854, and I think Sweden is a fine country, but thanks for the kind sentiments.
Also thank you phantom poster for thanking Chere for me. That was kind to Chere who deserves it as she is a very wonderful person.

God Bless America, though, Clas.

Best of luck in this to all and stay positive!

"We have nothing to fear, but fear itself"
FDR

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Best Regards,

QB

I have found that life is way too short to be pissed at clas all the time.
As far as getting attention from men...piss off! I wasn't trying to find any....read the name, I lost the love of my life, the man I had planned on getting old with. My BEST FRIEND!

Call me Ms. Goody Two Shoes.....or what ever, BELIEVE ME, LIFE IS TOO SHORT!

And its getting shorter...

Bookends.......

Time it was
And what a time it was
It was......
A time of innocence
A time of confidences
Long ago...it must be...
I have a photograph
Preserve your memories

They're all thats left you.

Q- Can you believe all of these people that keep responding to clASS? If you notice it's mostly women that do respond. This in part because these ladies most likely get no attention from men in their every day life for whatever reasons(probably because they're ugly as sin) and clASS knows this and plays off of it. Then you get people like steveedan who are just a complete imbeciles. clASS comes on here bashing our country and the next day he realizes everyone sees what he's really like then he come here kissing everyone's ass and sure enough you welcome him back with open arms. Losers!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

http://www.geocities.com/mansonlamp/binladen.jpg

Wow, what a NIGHT!

Concert last night was so moving. The lack of all those "gee wiz" effects, 50 cameras up people noses, etc. Just all those candles, saying so eloquently what we all were feeling. Outstanding moments for me: Billy Joel's "New York State" of Mind. Written when he was in his 20's and just perfectly says it all, about his love of the city. Moving rendition.
Limp Bizkit "Wish You Were Here" what a wonderfully done version of this Pink Floyd classic. I mentioned to the little one that it was a Pink Floyd song and the comment that came back to me was "Mom, how do you know it is?" Sheesh! (W1P: Thought of you.)
Surprisingly, Celine did a beautifully sung version of God Bless America. Had my doubts, but she pulled it off with perfection and grace.
Neil Young, did wonderful work on all songs he performed on, including "Imagine". Not my favorite John Lennon song, but he did it justice. When he worked with Eddie Vedder (I believe), was that some kind of sophiticated organ he was playing?
To those who know him better, what's the deal with the hat?
So proud of our country and how so many different Television and Radio stations came together to put this thing on. Hope it helps those who need it, on all levels.

Lisa G: Hope you recorded the show, at least? Sigh...
Thanks for the color on the mood of the City. These things help.

Q: Is that really you posting? I am having my doubts.

Mu: The way to get the "O's" out of your posts done in Word, is to restrike the quotation marks (deleting the old one, of course) on the copy in Sign In Stranger posting box. Then hit submit and it should be fine in its final form on the Guest Book.

Regarding the CNN interview with Skunk yesterday. Anyone catch this line?

BATTISTA: I've got hands up all over the place, but I've got to move on. I thank you all for joining us. Jeff Baxter, you'll have to come back and tell us the story about how you got from music to missile defense next time.

BAXTER: I want to know that myself.

Cracked me up, bigtime.

Be safe all....

Pigs at the farm? What does that have to do with the price of tea in Pakistan?

clas, darlin'...yes, 6 is "just" over the hill for Super large dogs..Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds, Scottish Deerhounds and the like. Can't really explain what happening with Pompe'..have you had him wormed? I do know my dogs seem to act very hungry in the fall of the year...fattenin' up for a long winter? Have his thyroid checked...or maybe hes has a very high metabolism?

I didn't hear Cat Stevens say anything about the WTC and the act of terrorism. Only repeating what I heard about a year ago. Glad to hear he feels like the majority.

BTW Clas, baby,...I didn't see MY name on your list...LOL!

Before I became a Steely Dan fanatic, I was an Elton John fanatic. I remain largely in awe of EJ's first 13 or so albums with a few subsequent ones thrown in as well.

Clas - you get so much attention here. Maybe we should have St. Al rename this place "Sign In Clas-ger" anyway ...

Madman Across The Water did not contain the song Take Me To The Pilot. That song was on the first American release of Elton's albums, the self-titled Elton John, which also had Your Song, Sixty Years On (in light of the comparison to the Pearl Harbor attack 60 years ago, that song again seems to have extra meaning right now), The Border Song, The Cage, I Need You To Turn To, and a few others.

Clas, maybe it's time for you to take your canine poop factory for a long walk down the Yellow Brick Road ... "Follow the yellow brick road (poop!), follow the yellow brick road (poop!). Follow (poop!) follow (poop!) follow (poop!) Follow (poop!) ... bring a hefty bag. Hey, any bag you take will be hefty before too long !!! I've heard some sick folks name their poops ... sounds like you've got a village !!!

I was wondering why Elton was not one of the telethon performers. I realize that you can't get everyone to come and play, but he is so active with AMFAR and other things American (like Broadway and the film industry) that I remember wondering about this during the telethon.

Take it slow, don't push too hard.

Steveedan

bin laden has four wives!?
another fine example of how women are oppressed: having to settle for genitally deficient men.

Larry Johnson - former deputy director of counterterrorism at the U.S. State department confirmed to the GLOBE that these tidbits well-known in the murky world of terrorism...

Sounds like propaganda material from Jerry Falwell and his christian Taliban. Don't get me wrong, the guys derserves to be taken out but he has four wives and I doubt his whole problem stems from being laughed at by some woman. Hell, if that were all it took, most of the men GB'ers would would be on their own verbal crusade right here.

The Bin Laden Dossier:

- Bin Laden suffers from a medical condition (sporadic Kallman's syndrome) that left him with underdeveloped sexual organs, and his hatred of the US began when an American girl laughed at his problem (confirmed by U.S. State department)....

- Ashamed of his condition, he turned to prostitutes, started drinking and got into street fights...

- His $300 million doller inherited fortuen has dwindled because he became involved in the heroin trade and is now said to be an opium smoker...

- Osama has told how he got his friend (who had snagged a woman Bin Laden had been lusting after) to drink tea laced with cyanide. He laughed as his pal died with blood and foam frothing from his mouhth...

Real "Holy"...

Lisa G - your words are the most elegant I can think of, probably because I can hear your voice while reading them.

mr Q - go back and tune your banjo.

C

I can see by your coat my friend you're from the other side...

Theres just one thing I got to know, can you tell me please...

Who won?

extending on St. Al's "anonymous poison pen" comment.

don'tyou love people who are so insecure that when they tell someone to "fuck off", they have to do it anonymously...

I just succumbed to a moment of disgust over carping from the likes of Clas and Blaise who just try to tear down this country when we are in crisis(yes, much/some of our own making) - but sticking it in America's face when it's down sucks-especially from countries whose very survival and or prosperity has been dependant to varying degrees on this country throughout history.

Limp's "Wish You Were Here" was incredibly poignant last nite-imho the best of the evening.

Clas, keep thumbing through your Swedish Encyclopedia, I sense it's a therapeutic and educational experience for you.

Fucking Off,

Q

PS Thanks,Chere- I am a nice guy, but I do suffer from Internet Personality Disorder and, regrettably, my true persona will never emerge in a forum such as this- that is why I tend to stay off the board to the delight of many.

My pleasure Clas, although my words are not as elegant as some other field reporters on this board.

More news, this time from Lower Manhattan-
I talked with a resident of Canal St. the other day. She is still devastated, but at least she's thankful she can be in her own home. Many of the residents of Battery Park will probably never return, at least in this calendar year. The buildings and area just aren't secure. The woman I talked to said that over 60 buildings in the area may still not be safe due to the incredible shock wave from the collapse of the WTC buildings. But something she mentioned that moved me: the shop keepers in the area, while not doing much business if any at all due to damage in and around their buildings, are donating food to the rescuers--food that they would have otherwise sold if this never had happened. I suppose they figure they need to help in any way they can. I don't know what's to become of their businesses in the long run, but I would like to see them get back on their collective feet before long. What a shame if they had to close or worse, go totally bankrupt.

angel-re:your e-post. Back at ya, girlfriend.

Floridavid-say it isn't so! Did you get an opinion or two on the permanency of your condition? Do you have nodes or polyps? I know several people who have had vocal damage. While I am far from expert on the subject, I heard that whether or not there's permanent damage depends largely on how far gone the condition is. Take care of that golden throat of yours. Kudos for 6 weeks off of those nasty cylinders!

LG

was that Michael Nesmith playing with U2 last night . . . The Northern Alliance is the perfect name for a guerilla group, half WWF, half Attila the Hun . . . write it down, UVa will upset Clemson this afternoon

Well, Meg, he he, šhhh, yes, or NO! It depends on how you look at it.

I call you, pull yorself together now,

C

Clas? Are you MARRIED?

strike Indira from MY list.

C

Hi Girls!

Thanks for the Manhattan report Lisa G.

---

Hi Cyn - such a waste! Don't you have pigs on the farm?

And please, Cat Stevens says he's NOT supporting the terror attacks Óhas nothing to do with IslamÓ. And what are you saying, are your O sick, a thoe? God bless HIM.

Herr Thatcher? Is that a woman???

Adding the hard-headed-woman-list:

Fredrika Bremer
Elise Ottosen-Jensen
Indira Ghandi
Maria-Pia Boethius (uh, she was hard nut to crack, she still refuse to talk to me)
Hilarious Clinton
and my Wife

And HEY, as I understand you're knowing a lot of stuff about animals, may I ask you a question? Pompe (he's a Great Dane, but you already knew that, or?) he's pretty old now, for being a Dane, 6 years. But he seems pretty healthy except for one thing, he's eating more than ever, and doing piles 4-5 times aday. He's not gaining or loosing weight. The Vet I talked to couldn't say. And at home we don't know hell what to think.

---

Josie - as Princess Mandy? You've already gone thru jail, marriage and divorce? Whoah, time's running fast. Welcome back.

---

Isn't Elton Johns album ÓMad Man across the WaterÓ at the-banned list? I mean, the line ÓTake me to the pilot for control...Ó

Peace now,

C

Sorry I missed the telethon.

Last night, DaddyG and I met his father and step-mother in the city for dinner and a Broadway show. We've had this evening planned for weeks, but frankly I didn't want to go. I thought it too depressing. But it was indeed good to be back in NYC, to see the people bustling and hurrying to get where they had to be.

The atmosphere at the restaurant was quiet but the patrons were seemingly undaunted. Life slowly is getting back to normal, I imagine. However, at the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel on NJ side, there was a uniformed police officer at EVERY toll booth. The officers were scanning cars and checking on suspicious looking vehicles. Broadway was as usual: people still spilling into the streets with no regard to traffic after the shows. But the area was a little less crazed than normal--less people perhaps. Cops were EVERYWHERE. (We have a friend who is a member of the NYC Civilian Police Force, and she has been called to active duty on watch.) In spite of all this, it was nice to see the Broadhurst Theatre packed for the dark comedy we went to see in its preview stages.

As we happened down to the corner of 44th St. and 8th Ave. on our way to the show, we came upon the bronze statue of a fireman resting on one knee, head in hand. This incredible statue is larger than life, and it assembled crowds of mournful onlookers, some who left flowers and posters with heartfelt and thankful messages. To the rear of the display, there was a reproduction of a newspaper article that told some of the story of the statue. Apparently, the firefighter's pose was the exact same of a real firefighter who was photographed recently at ground zero. The pose was riddled with both reverence and despair. (I will be researching to find out more of the story as we really could not stay very long--we had planned to pick up a friend who was staying the night with us.)

There was a large card in front of the statue with the names of firefighters, their families and their companies. It wasn't clear if all names on the list were the ones of firefighters who sacrificed their lives in rescue, or if they were the ones of ALL who participated in the rescue. I can't imagine everyone who is still working on the scene is on that list, as I'm sure new people come in every day. Two large plaques were hoisted around the sides of the structure--one was a scene of firefighters in action and the other was the poem that became the song "America the Beautiful." Both plaques were also sculpted out of bronze. The moods of onlookers ranged from tearful to solemn. It was quite a moving display right in the heart of the Theatre District. Yes, life goes on, but it makes you stop and think. And while we tried to momentarily forget about the whole situation by getting lost in a night out, the statue gave us a reflective reminder of the state of things--a memory of the tragedy and its constant repercussions. The statue is aptly placed and the people are thankful for it. Yes, the skyline is indeed fractured and again smoke is visible in the night, but NYC is still one hell of a town.

I bet you a nickel the anon female basher is none other than NYBill, cause that's about the value of his opinions.

The Hand that rocks the Cradle...rules the World.

Sacrifice? You wouldn't know sacrifice if it came up and slapped you upside the head. Why don't you sacrifice posting under your real name... too "Weak"? too "Oppressed"? Do you think people will think less of you for posting your opinion without the guise of anon?

Your arguement about the feminine "Turning of the tides" is without a doubt is the stupidest thing one could say. Have you ever seen a woman's reaction when someone threatens her child? Just one look would scare the shit out of any "racional" human being.

Lets start a list of some ' oppressed, weak women'

1. Cleopatra
2. Queen Isabella of Spain
3. Queen Elizabeth I
4. Golda Meir
5. Indira Gandhi
6. Margaret Thatcher
7. Madelaine Albright

Anyone care to add to the list?

Oh yeah, he/she forgot to mention, we have periods too.

I was glued to the Telethon last night...I have no complaints about any of the music....considering they really didn't have enough time for proper practice. It was announced only on Tuesday that they would be doing this.Simon's "Bridge over Trouble Water" tore me up. But, Billy Joel's "New York State of Mind" was so powerful, it sucker punched me.
After it was over...switchin' channels....hit on VH1, just in time for Garth Brooks singing "American Pie" Followed by Lenny Kravitz and Clapton playing "All Along the Watchtower" Whoaaaaa, Nelly!

Watching last night's telethon, I was struck by the fact that many presenters are people who usually make a living (and a very good one at that) promoting the exposure and cashing in on the fascination exerted on the public by blowing up stuff, namely big buildings, often symbolic ones, on the silver screen. I'm thinking about George Clooney, Tom Cruise, Will Smith and the likes. Is it a case of conscience, provoked by seeing the real-time devastation that can occur? Me thinks so. At least, it must come into play in their decision, besides, of course, the genuine show of support for the victims.
Btw, can someone tell U2 to come back when they start sounding fresh again? Thank you. I mean extended emotional crescendos dressed up with the trademark echo boxed guitar arpeggios have seen their time, imho. Oh well... it was for a good cause.

And, to carry on a thread initiated earlier this week by the host here the current wave of censorship (often self-censorship) following this event is quite disconcerting. For example, they dropped a Bush sketch from Mad TV since you can't question the president anymore.(?) Late night shows are totally devoid of their usual political humor. Shows are rewriting and reshooting episodes now deemed unfit for airing. We've heard here of songs banned from radio airplay. Where is this going? Is this the beginning of a new age of mediated speech or is it just a phase?
Obviously, this is one way the tragedy has impacted and changed our lives so far.

http://www.elf-game.co.jp/html/kisaku1.html

The telethon tonight was a great and inspired show. I thought Stevie Wonder's "Love's In Need Of Love Today" was a standout. I believe Take 6 were the background choir. Billy Joel did a great rendition of "New York State Of Mind" - not bad for a guy in retirement. Limp biscuit's performance of Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" with the added lyrics was very heartfelt and was delivered with true impact. Paul Simon performed a radio-banned song "Bridge Over Troubled Water". Wyclef Jean and that great female backup singer were great. Watching Neil Young play John Lennon's "Imagine" was another great moment. Tom Petty's "I Won't Back Down" delivered an extra-added message about the American spirit. There were other inspired performances that I have failed to mention here, but the entire show, along with the spoken-word interludes by various actors and entertainers, such as Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts, Conan O'Brian and Sarah Jessica Parker, Tom Cruise, Jim Carey, Chris Rock, Dennis Franz and many others showed to the world that America has true spirit.

There is no doubt that the trajedy that occured in our country on September 11, 2001 will be a day that will truly live in infamy, but the American people stand as one in the face of such calamity. There is a spirit of solidarity that is swirling in this country that hasn't been present in many years.

It is a shame that it took such a horrible event to spark this spirit, but that horrific event is irreversable. Now we must look ahead to the task that we must take upon ourselves.

There are no easy answers, or quick remedies. As long as informed rational thinking prevails, I pray that the eventual outcome will be that peace and security may be restored to America and the world. It is time to begin the process of healing and restoring order and security in the world.

Going after Bin Laden is not the entire goal. Not even close.

God Bless America and peace loving people the whole world over.

Steveedan

Transcript of Skunk stinking up CNN's Talback Live:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/21/tl.00.html

What about the Tribute to Heroes show? I thought Wycliff Jean doing Redemption Song was a highlight. Bruce's opening number My City in Ruins was perfect. The Goo Goo Dolls/Limp Bizkit cover of Wish You Were Here wasn't perfect, but I thought it was delivered with the right attitude and surprising maturity. Neil Young blew me away with Imagine.

What is this, a Steely Dan guestbook or a freakin' re-run of point/counterpoint? Any ignorant sluts in the house?

Let's be careful out there this weekend!

Dragon: Good points re: my counting (or lack thereof) and Plebius

Welcome Wagon: helluva research job! Great links. The Teliban are tough, cruel, and ruthless. They mean business, though the pics show them posing. But that's part of their discipline.

Afghanistan is not one country of even a country at this point. The Taliban are largely Pakistani. Only a fraction fought the Soviets. The Northern Alliance are culturally and ethnically different, a rag-tag bunch. Look at them. Not just the dress and beards. They are a different gene pool: Are they the true Afghans? They were the primary opposition to the Soviets. I remember the pictures from the 80s well. THESE are the people.

http://www.ciriello.com/46alliance.html

The cruelty of the Taliban against the Afghans is enormous:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/ayazahmedkhan1.html

Ahmed Shah Massud (or Massoud) was the leader of the Northern Alliance

http://www.ciriello.com/46massud.html

My Italian is virtually nonexistent, but itÍs clear the Taliban have now murdered Massud roughly at the time of the Trade Center/Pentagon attack. This is no coincidence.

http://www.stringer.it/Stringer%20Schede/Breaking.htm#35

The following is a letter from Massud read to a Senate Committee in 1998. We should have listened. But we do have friends in Afghanistan who are depending on us. IÍm sure this part of our developing strategy, or it should beƒ

------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Message to the People of the United States of America
Posted by qazi@afghan-web.com the Wednesday, September 12 2001 @ 15:49:24 MEST

October 8, 1998

From Ahmad Shah Massoud Defence Minister, Islamic State of Afghanistan

Through the United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations

Hearing on Events in Afghanistan

In the name of God

Mr. Chairman, honorable representatives of the people of the United States of America,

I send this message to you today on behalf of the freedom and peace-loving people of Afghanistan, the Mujahedeen freedom fighters who resisted and defeated Soviet communism, the men and women who are still resisting oppression and foreign hegemony and, in the name of more than one and a half million Afghan martyrs who sacrificed their lives to uphold some of the same values and ideals shared by most Americans and Afghans alike. This is a crucial and unique moment in the history of Afghanistan and the world, a time when Afghanistan has crossed yet another threshold and is entering a new stage of struggle and resistance for its survival as a free nation and independent state.

I have spent the past 20 years, most of my youth and adult life, alongside my compatriots, at the service of the Afghan nation, fighting an uphill battle to preserve our freedom, independence, right to self-determination and dignity. Afghans fought for God and country, sometime alone, at other times with the support of the international community. Against all odds, we, meaning the free world and Afghans, halted and checkmated Soviet expansionism a decade ago. But the embattled people of my country did not savor the fruits of victory. Instead they were thrust in a whirlwind of foreign intrigue, deception, great-gamesmanship and internal strife. Our country and our noble people were brutalized, the victims of misplaced greed, hegemonic designs and ignorance. We Afghans erred too. Our shortcomings were as a result of political innocence, inexperience, vulnerability, victimization, bickering and inflated egos. But by no means does this justify what some of our so-called Cold War allies did to undermine this just victory and unleash their diabolical plans to destroy and subjugate Afghanistan.

Today, the world clearly sees and feels the results of such misguided and evil deeds. South-Central Asia is in turmoil, some countries on the brink of war. Illegal drug production, terrorist activities and planning are on the rise. Ethnic and religiously-motivated mass murders and forced displacements are taking place, and the most basic human and womenÍs rights are shamelessly violated. The country has gradually been occupied by fanatics, extremists, terrorists, mercenaries, drug Mafias and professional murderers. One faction, the Taliban, which by no means rightly represents Islam, Afghanistan or our centuries-old cultural heritage, has with direct foreign assistance exacerbated this explosive situation. They are unyielding and unwilling to talk or reach a compromise with any other Afghan side.

Unfortunately, this dark accomplishment could not have materialized without the direct support and involvement of influential governmental and non-governmental circles in Pakistan. Aside from receiving military logistics, fuel and arms from Pakistan, our intelligence reports indicate that more than 28,000 Pakistani citizens, including paramilitary personnel and military advisers are part of the Taliban occupation forces in various parts of Afghanistan. We currently hold more than 500 Pakistani citizens including military personnel in our POW camps. Three major concerns - namely terrorism, drugs and human rights - originate from Taliban-held areas but are instigated from Pakistan, thus forming the inter-connecting angles of an evil triangle. For many Afghans, regardless of ethnicity or religion, Afghanistan, for the second time in one decade, is once again an occupied country.

Let me correct a few fallacies that are propagated by Taliban backers and their lobbies around the world. This situation over the short and long-run, even in case of total control by the Taliban, will not be to anyoneÍs interest. It will not result in stability, peace and prosperity in the region. The people of Afghanistan will not accept such a repressive regime. Regional countries will never feel secure and safe. Resistance will not end in Afghanistan, but will take on a new national dimension, encompassing all Afghan ethnic and social strata.

The goal is clear. Afghans want to regain their right to self-determination through a democratic or traditional mechanism acceptable to our people. No one group, faction or individual has the right to dictate or impose its will by force or proxy on others. But first, the obstacles have to be overcome, the war has to end, just peace established and a transitional administration set up to move us toward a representative government.

We are willing to move toward this noble goal. We consider this as part of our duty to defend humanity against the scourge of intolerance, violence and fanaticism. But the international community and the democracies of the world should not waste any valuable time, and instead play their critical role to assist in any way possible the valiant people of Afghanistan overcome the obstacles that exist on the path to freedom, peace, stability and prosperity. Effective pressure should be exerted on those countries who stand against the aspirations of the people of Afghanistan. I urge you to engage in constructive and substantive discussions with our representatives and all Afghans who can and want to be part of a broad consensus for peace and freedom for Afghanistan.

With all due respect and my best wishes for the government and people of the United States,

Ahmad Shah Massoud.

I make, document, teach and disseminate the "social sciences"; you don't.

"Feminine" is emblematic of one thing: The constriction of horizon. From quarterly (soon to become monthly) reports, to indifference as to what "others" think, to ADHD, to natural- language analytic philosophy, the feminization of life is inevitable. It is as impossible to stop as ceasing to think of events as caused.
It is testament to the truth of difference; viz, that "history" happens because there are "betters" and their are "worse." And there are betters and worse because there is the POSSIBILITY of violation -- EVIL if you like. There is no truth, no justice, without willingness to sacrifice "face" for denying it's all about "face." The feminine, the oppressed, the weaker -- whether they are black, white, gay, hetero, tall, short, women, or men -- excercise fascination; are able to reconcile the contradiction of their existence (that they "shouldn't exist" ie, are weak) symbolically and hence are inspirations/threats to those "in power."
The feminine are indeed "easier to violate"! They are MASTERS at this alone: INNOVATING in the area of violation is their specialty; MAKING VIOLATION UNNATURAL, truly DISCOVERING violation, in brief, making it CULTURAL. TAKING AWAY THE GOOD CONSCIENCE OF HONOR -- taking away the FUTURE in favor of the PRESENT -- USUALLY theirs (and often understandably, given it sucks compared to the "betters").
Masculinity is about EXTENDING horizons, the SACRIFICE of the PRESENT FOR THE FUTURE, PHILOSOPHIZING about it, CELEBRATING THE SACRIFICE AS WISDOM -- INFINITE JUSTICE INDEED! Of course THAT label couldnt stand -- it was TOO MASCULINE. So Bill Maher could go on last night and celebrate the fact that in America we are allowed to DISCUSS dissenting viewpoints etc... unfortunately he didnt add that the result is often the same in any case. It is no more honorable to acknowledge a point of view than it is to condemn it. But it sure makes it look better when you do. Yes, a service economy -- LIP service that is.
But in being feminized, history is simply brought to conclusion as "just" -- as "truth" -- requiring more and more massive denials via multi-network simultcast telethons called "I Love Lucy" reruns on other nights, and the like.
So, when I refer to feminization, it doesnt preclude an equal sheer amount of masculinizing. But horizons can be extended "publicly" or "privately." We have no better testament of our capacity for and facility with carrying out denials than our much vaunted separation of church and state. It is the instituionalization of "who the fuck cares WHAT you believe." The genius of our self-help penchant is in that word "self." As in DO IT YOURSELF.
Feeling "worthy" -- "improving self-esteem" -- being able to look at yourself at all objectively when you at great risk for barfing if you do, is really impossible in an astouding way for many many Americans. But OBJECTIVELY here means next to nothing; there is nothing to gain by the incentive system of shortened horizons in "knowing yourself" at all well -- or AT ALL! What would that amount to really? I mean since there's no there there anyway? Yet self esteem problems are epidemic and are America's number one cultural export. This is especially ARROGANCE is so oft attributed. Never have so many people cared so much about status, and at the same time DENY and BEEN DENIED it.
This is all to America's and the world's long run credit, if seen from a masculine point of view (obviously it's ALREADY a picnic for the feminine.. hehe that's what I was meaning earlier)... It is masculinity not femininity that will ultimately do the WORK -- the SELF SACRIFICING work (I mean in FACE terms NOT in CHANGING DIAPERS TERMS, which latter redounds to the caretakers benefit rather soon -- for testimony to which just watch what happens to that diapger changer the minute that magical outcome just don't happen!). As I was saying -- The self sacrifice -- TRUE sacrifice work which will have no GRATEFUL witnesses, which will UNDERSTAND and TEACH male and female in a way finally which will renders the distinction obsolete, and violence and violation along with it.

on my way to bed, just thought i'd share this:

http://www.geocities.com/birdsofvirginia/one4binLaden.jpg

angel....no worries on me being laid off....being there for 25 years has a few perks at least....thanks for asking though.

MC

ravin' lunatic

USA the most feminine nation on Earth? Maybe you should have studied your social sciences a little more. Oh, wait, I forgot you have to have a flag to be a nation, silly me.

USA a feminine nation? Well if you want to equate feminine with the following I guess you'd be right: someone who taught you to defecate in a toilet not in your drawers, someone who taught you a language to speak instead of you just babbling like an idiot, the person that first gave you an education, etc.

Too many people have bashed women for not making a mark in history, when the problem has been men writing history. They tend to leave out the female influences or downplay them. I understand that in the interest of brevity that many of these fell by the way because the influences were more personal than national. But the main reason women haven't made more history was they were too busy; changing diapers, teaching their children a language, cooking meals, cleaning house and being oppressed (and/or brainwashed) by men to achieve any *greatness*.

USA a feminine nation? Now if you want to equate female with being *generally* smaller and with less brute force than male. You're wrong again. If you equate it with something that is easier to violate because of it's general qualities (i.e. freedom of speech, freedom to assembly, some of the best mass transit in the world, etc) then maybe you have a point.

Mu -- uhmm, that's thirty-five sweet goodbyes, so in Steely numerology that means it should be out April 19th. Let the pools begin.

Plebius -- the Puritans were a simple people, the views you are expressing to be attributed to them are more Victorian than Puritan. Some Puritan groups even believed in pre-marital sex. Since I drank too much as a toddler I couldn't seem to remember more than that juicy little tidbit about SEX. So go look it up yourself, unless you think that learning about sex, violence and such will turn you into a wildebeest. Oh and if you don't want you children exposed to all sorts of unspeakable horrors I suggest you glue their History textbooks shut, cut up any library cards they have, and keep them locked in the house and yard letting them out only for completely sanitized and twisted Sunday school lessons, where they can learn that God made males first (not so read Genesis 1:27 or 5:2) or that Eve (doesn't mention her name) gave Adam (doesn't mention his name) an apple (not an apple it was what? most people who call themselves Christians couldn't answer this one to save their lives, it was fruit of the tree of knowledge (no that's only half the answer) of good and evil (Genesis 2:9). If you believe in the bible it follows that we weren't meant to know that sex with Cousin Dupree was bad. Imagine that?

Thots Ð uhmm, yeah, but I try not to think about it. I guess I maybe in the denial stage of grief.

Floridavid Ð Congratulations on being a non-smoker! I am sorry to hear about your throat troubles hope your recovery time is as pleasant as possible. Bon Voyage!

Duncan -- anything but yellow, please.

Those guys look pretty scary!

Want to see the enemy? For real

http://www.ciriello.com/46taleban.html

red/ blue / white/ clear /yellow/ green
still available !!

Going fast get em while you can

At that rate of quaff vs. exchange, I should be a millionaire sometime next spring.

If you bought $1000 worth of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now be worth $49.

If you bought $1000 worth of Budweiser (the beer, not the stock) one year ago,
drank all the beer, and traded in the cans for the nickel deposit, you would have $79.

Cheers

Is Kinky still around? Can't a girl get married and divorced in five years? Did I tell you I got to hug Walter? Sorry, a lot has happened since. But I still love Steely Dan. That won't ever change. And you must be joking. Is Clas still here? How can anyone stay in here that long???????

walter??

Awww, who cares from whence this Josie came. Just show us yer boobs, honey!

IF kinky is still with us.
he supposedly works in the financial field and lives in manhattan. nobody's heard from him since the bombing.

Josie was a Yale freshman (-woman?) who contributed to this site a few years ago until she reached her peak (organized a dan-fest with zero attendants and got a back-stagepass to a concert where she got a hug or two (or more) from Walt). Kinky gained much of his reputation on responding to her contributions. Kinky come back!! Clas is still here.

D.O.A.

VP ? gets the white pin
D

top ten reasons Skunk Baxter should be a mercenary in the war on terrorists

12) who's our man in missile defense?
11) with a name like skunk, chemical deterents are child's play
10) no worries chasing after groupies in an Islamic veiled setting
9) if the guy can figure out how to work a wah wah peddle
certainly an AK 47 should be no large task
8) I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah
7) he already has the green beret
6) he left all his doobies back in the 80's
5) send lawyers, guns and money... oops wrong website
4) those spectacles are really high tech night vision special issue
3) can I ride on a cruise missile ala Dr Strangelove?
2) haven't been asked back for the Dan's 02 outing yet
1) Minute by minuteman

hey david, sorry to read your story, so yes what will you do with your time off - write your memoirs? read a good book? post more?

anyways, drink lotsa lemonade and stay away from dairy products!

get well soon, buddy

As I recall: I don't think that's the same Josie. I don't believe she had an ex-husband.

Reading everything with new perspective

"Anti-Biotics": these rebels really have their work cut out for them up against those pesky Biotics, who seem to latch onto you and never let go

Floridave isn't allowed to sing or speak. hmm, what'll you be doing?

Duncan-- It's more like "It's you...fool on the hill. Are you really an idiot or do you just play one on this guestbook?

I have maps / pins & too much disposable income

Mental note must give Linda more housekeeping...
Duncan

P.S. your the first

Cheers LP you get a red pin

Skunk Baxter is on CNN right now. 3:15 east cost time

Original Josie was a cute Yalie who co-authored a Steely web site. Zat you, Metal Peg?

hey metal peg, welcome back and hello to your new name - not like nobody around here has done that before...lol

whoever is logging on a map as to where we all live - i'm in boston, and according to the latest reports, that may not be to my advantage - sigh

Hi Metal Peg
rip Josie!!

Youre not Dutch are you ?

Duncan

Welcome Metal Peg-

-A couple of you didn't agree with my assessment with GW's speach. That's ok. I still think those responsible for killing civilians should pay heavily.Like the guy who says "no, we're cool..." and as you turn and walk away ,sucker punches you.

Roy.Scam- Counting you as a Fan is something I don't take lightly.Thank you Sir.

Well, I did a bad thing 5 weeks ago. I got a throat infection and kept singing my guts out. Regular Doctor put me through 2 courses of Anti-biotics before refering me to a Throat Specialist. Too late, I damaged my Vocal Chords. Just couldn't get off the tread mill. So now I have to.Gonna take a couple of weeks off with Nurse Floridale and go on a cruise. No singing and very little talking.Not leaving until Sept. 29th so I'll be Lurking.Just finishing week 6 without Ciggies though.Big Life changes when you get older.(thanks for reminding me St Al...LOL)

BIG Shoutouts to everyone.
Have a mellow weekend My Friends, David

is that the original josie from WAY back when, or josiedanfan from just a few years ago?

A long time ago I used to come in here as Josie. I have no idea whether there's another Josie here? And times have changed, I don't feel like a Josie anymore. I'd like for you to know me as Metal Peg? Peg is my friend's fav song and my former husband was hung up on Metal Leg once. I don't know why I ended up here. I am kind of confused, our country is changing rapidly. Maybe I hope I am to find something familiar here. I don't know. Anyway, thanks for having me. God bless America.

thank god corpsy V is here to restore civil liberties and provide civil defense...

I told you troops, it will be a long campaign. Noone said it would be easy. We have striken but the enemy still stands, albeit weakened, sort of. We shall prevail and we will never surrender. On to plan B.

Well Greetings Once More Friends...,

Well it seems that Mr.Bills computer was obliterated by some
obnoxious virus that's floating around out there. It's over
at the shop right now, up on lift with a lot of confused
mechanics standing around wondering what to do with it.
Anyway, until i get the sucker back I just won't be able to
aggravate you folks at the rate I was before. What can I tell'ya,
Life is Ironic and Computers even more so...

All of which reminds me of a joke (or reality depending upon
who you are...). This guys dies and winds up going to Hell
(Hell is kind of like this place only nicer). Anyway, when he
gets to Hell he checks it out for a while and he realizes that
Hell aint such a bad place after all. It's got all the bars you
want and all the women you could ever need. So he says to Satan
he says, " Hey Satan, this place is freakin' great, look at all
these bars and all these women (the women appeared to be Swedish)
why do they say that this place is so bad?"
"Well...", Satan says, "You see all those bottles of liquor
behind the bar there? They've all got holes in em'... You see
all those women? They Don't!"

Ahhhhh...Irony of Ironies....

Anyway, in as much as we ain't never gonna talk another Steely
Dan related thing in our lives again, why not talk about cars.
Or better yet, Auto Restoration.... Why auto restoration? Well
it's gotta be better than some of the junk we've been talking
about lately no?

Ok, so the first step in finding a car to restore is finding the
right one. What do I mean by " the right car"? Well, it should
be a car that is going to be worth something when your done.
This means no Obscure cars that can be a bitch to find resto
parts for and no four-doors which really are'nt worth much.
The easiest cars to restore are probably your 60's era muscle
cars, ie..GTO,Mustang,Camaro,Firebird,Nova,Falcon,Barracuda et al... Restoration parts for these cars are being reproduced by
a wide variety of manufacturers and can usually be gotten at
for a reasonable price.

"Yes but how do I know that I'm buying a good car?", you might
ask? Well, this is where your auto body experience comes into
play. First, put the car up on a lift (like my computer above...)
Take a tape measurer and check the frame rail measurements
against the manufacturers specifications. If things don't add up
then you've probably got a car that's been smacked pretty hard.
It the car has been smacked hard enought to bend the steel frame
rails then you probably would want to walk away from it. It' not
worth the extra work to correct it.

Also look for obvious weld marks on the frame rails. This can
sometimes be hard to find especially if the repairman is an
exceptionally skilled welder. If you do find evidence of welding
then you've probably got a car with a chopped frame. The car was
twisted in an accident at one time and the frame was cut and
frame of another vehicle was spliced into the original frame.
What's the problem with that? Well, if the frame isn't lined
up precisely then your going to have all sorts of alignment
problems later on. Best to avoid any vehicle where frame damage
is suspected.

Ok, that takes care of part 1. Next time we'll talk about the
various forms of paint removal/blasting media and the processes
necessary to refinish your collector car.

Until Next Time, Happy Motoring!

NYBill

To all who have expressed concern...
Yes, my dog is still dead.

-O

Thots:

does anyone get the impression that we don't know what the hell we're doing?

does the american gov't blindly wage a war against an invisible enemy?

does anyone else feel that bushie is spouting empty rhetoric?

does anyone fully understand what a holy war will be like?

it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel like hell

Thots:

does anyone get the impression that we don't know what the hell we're doing?

does the american gov't blindly wage a war against an invisible enemy?

does anyone else feel that bushie is spouting empty rhetoric?

does anyone fully understand what a holy war will be like?

it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel like hell

Remember, these people are still mad at me, so the work of the Truman and Ike Administrations on down to Bush is nothin'!

It took the tragic deaths of over 6000 innocent people in New York and Washington for Bush to rise to the occasion?

Shouldn't the occupant of the White House be a little more of a self-motivator?

to the tune Throw Back the Little Ones
(bl bin laden) (ao american opposition)

bl
Lost in Afganastan I hide from infidels
and make my plans of hate on the great Satan
I'll torch the place and leave it in waste
and do it all for Allah

ao
a throw back - this terrorist, our plan - fry Bin Laden
use tact, and poise - fight treason, our intent to seize him

bl
Holy war rhetoric, a cause for those with nothing
I'm glad as they are pawns in my reign of sorrow
I'll bomb the States and seal their fates
and hide in exile tommorrow

ao
a throw back - this terrorist, our plan - fry Bin Laden
use tact, and poise - fight treason, our intent to seize him

bl
don't dare retaliate, there's more up my sleeve and
I don't care if it's soldiers or mere civilians
I'll bring Islamic states to join in hate
before their western noses

gimt

That would be aspirin and Goggles....

Sending Mea Culpa's for the Cat Stevens lyric, forgot he has turned into a "West" hating muslim...who approves of the Jihad.

BTW Oaige...Your dog can't spell worth a damn...get her some keyboard lessons.

Yes clas...a blender attached to the drain in my sink..thats it...except it grinds it all away.

Hey *Chuckles*... Bite me, today is not a good day to call me names (just ask the group in chat last night).
Got 'shrooms in those pattie platters? Or are they a side order?
Jimmyyyy...Look for the moving muskrat hutch..we'll be sneakin' in from the east. Do we need our nightvision googles?

Oaige...How's the dog? Still dead?

Duncun...My doggies are fine...Oaige's got a bit of a problem with his tho. Read the above...LOL

Deacon..forgive me for not asking about your wife the other day, I do hope she's doing much better!

LB..wanna sneak into the Oyster fest with Face and me..wear Marsh Cammo. And meet us at the 3rd Muskrat hutch to the left...your left, no wait..our left...Damn, gotta call Face 'bout that.

Today will be a good day...I'm skippin' life and my youngest is skippin' school, and we're going to the beach. Indies driving.

I hope you all have a great week-end..take a respite from all the troubles this world has to offer.

cuz, out on the edge of Darkness...there rides a Peace Train

Discount Dental/Vision/Prescription Plan- National Premiere Benefits Company-You owe it to yourself and family to visit our site! Sign up online! http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/aagate

Some turnout, and ain't it grand
Get with it we'll bake his ass
Don't bother to understand
Don't question our little plan
Be part of the brotherhood
We'll get Bin Laden
And feel soooooo good
Bush backers and Tony Blair
All NATO, as if you cared
Through the sea and from the air
No trouble, we'll find his lair
We're bombing his neighborhood
We'll hit Bin Laden
It's understood

timg

Darling dear, it's ÓskiftnyckelÓ, like ÓshiftkeyÓ, but the proper English name is listed below:

SWEDISH INVENTIONS, part IV:

Tetra Pak

The Separator and the Milking Machine

The Ball Bearing

The Propeller

The Zipper

The Safety Match

Dynamite (see the Nobel prize)

The Turbo Engine for Cars

Innovations in Telecommunications
The modern telephone was constructed by a Swede with the name Lars Magnus Ericsson. At that time, telephones had the mouthpiece built in, while the speaker was connected to the telephone by a flex. Ericsson's new idea was to combine the two into a single receiver. In 1876* he founded the Ericsson company in Stockholm

The Adjustable Spanner

---

Roy Scam - yes, when you're saying it, you're right, ÓMikeysÓ it is. And that was funny, ÓDancing Queen, they love our musicÓ.

---

* 1876, do you remember 1876 Q? Tampa was a swamp, and your family lived in Romania.

C

Uhhiu, Clas!

I believe the Monkey Wrench was invented by a Swede, and, it's only us gringos calling it ÓMonkey WrenchÓ (that make sense).

Hon, what's the REAL name for that... hmmm, TOOL? Hi hi hi hi.

Aus~ Happy Anniversary. Clever picking the year 2000 so that you'll never have to do any stressful arithmetic in remembering how many "wonderful years". May your years be plentiful and peaceful.

Midnite Cruiser~ Well said about the importance of music. To me, it's even more important in recent days than before. At one point, I just turned off the news and gave up some time listening to good music (NY Rock&Soul Revue, to be specific). It didn't eradicate the sadness and anger but it helped me to hold on to myself. (Actually I could have selected a better phrase to represent that concept, but it's early, I'm cold and I'm tired.)

Isn't September 21 the day we officially 'say goodbye to summer'? If, as I am, you're a Floridavid fan, you may be humming that song to yourself for a while. Not a bad thing to get hooked on the corner of one's brain. i just hope i don't start trying to recreate that saxaphone wail in front of anyone.

Clas~ I love the Trouble In Paradise album also. Actually I believe the line, " ... all this ugly music. Where are we on the moon?" was from the song "Mikey's".
"Christmas In Capetown" had the line, "... Dancin' Queen. They love our music."

George W~ Good speech. But I still don't like to hear the word "war" to describe this action. It promotes the people responsible for the massacre to the level of activists, even soldiers. We need to give them our attention, and assist them on their road to Allah, but don't legitimize them with historical or moral context. They're just murderers.

RS

Oh my, look what happens to this place when the Banyan Trees own Military Elite is working undercover in Louisiana and Florida. Our hearts stopped the minute it became obvious it wasn't an accident happening there in the Big Apple. We reanimated eachother keeping in mind we had to find our way back to our cosy little den, even if it meant we had to take the flies and manure and other shit for granted. Our first stop was the bottom of the Hudson River ofcourse, where we planted a few submarines equiped with the latest in modern technology to radiate peace and anti-violence and endurance and strength to those who need it. Unfortunately three of our men were sent back home to their families. They couldn't cope being overwhelmed with positive vibes and tried to resist any way they can. Our female batch had less even little even no problemo dealing with the Florence Nightengale Elixer #2270. It's a part of random implant these days, the magic of silicon could be in your hands or bra and you wouldn't realize it at first. The FNE #2270 does need a little time to work, so .......
Is the CafŽ D'Escargot still intact? I've seen a lot of commotion around here, I hope it didn't chase away all those nice and regulars who liked the Steely Dan Karaoke. Especially in bad times we needs to stick together. I already spotted some volunteers for the Cow Manure Pie Eating Contest. NY Bill, Stevee "tribute" Dan, Ballah and even "garbage mouth" Cyn, oh, these would be fine fine candidates. * chuckles *
We hads to dive for alligator eggs in Florida, sit on them and raise them little ones to hunt down invisible enemies. Now I am beginning to see the light, you know. We got a whole truck loaded with them sweet cakes. Godzilla, Balou, Daktari, Baggy Trousers, Queen Mary, Alexis. Just to name a few. They are ready to rear their jaws for our nation!
Well, it is time for some nocturnal snack now, so won't someone please hand me some of that pasta a l'anon?

It would be a lot easier if we did take over territory. Declare an explicit cultural war. "We'll see your Jihad and raise you some serious capital." Don't kid yerselves. Christianity and Islam -- as PRACTICED not as FAITHS, not to mention Confucian communism, are NOT compatible. Women versus men. Oppressed versus dominant. This is simply a more spiritualized and scaled-up war between the sexes.

Again you heard it here first: War and enmity, football and soaps, Harlequin and Budweiser, boxing and circumcision will not abate until we achieve a genderless, explicitly commercialized sexuality, and capitalize childbearing and rearing.

Copyright c 2001 FNN

that town is a little bit too rugged, for you and me you, you bad girl...

the Stranger - I love LA. That Randy Newman song was constantly spinning at my house in the early 80's. ÓTrouble in ParadiseÓ.

ÓChristmas in CapetownÓ (Where are we? On the moon?), ÓThe BluesÓ (...killed in a barfight with a pair of marines and a sailor oh...). Great stuff (that line inspired me when I was defending Lisa and Sunny Sam in a bar in New Orleans 1999, there was a bunch of Danish marines, I didn't like their nasty way looking at Sunny Sam)

But;

the Stranger - christ man, don't you own a map? A terrestrial globe? There's no eskimos at the north Sweden/Finland/Russia-borders.

You seem to have the same knowledge of the world outside Knoxville as our Brightest Shining Brain; mr Q.

Aha aha, you US-gringos are jumping from 350-600 meters. Cowards. That's nothing. We Swedes do that all the time, without parachuts.

Suicide rate, per 100.000

male - female

Denmark 24.3 - 9.8

Sweden 20.0 - 8.5

Canada 19.6 - 5.1

USA 18.7 - 4.4

I don't mention France here, their doing their best with their wine-drinking; liver-chirrhosis.

And finaly mister Stranger, now it's oficial; the dancing Palestines was a fake. Bernd Dšrler, from the German newspaper Stern, tracked down a woman from the film-sequence. She said that the Party-dancing had been called forth by a Palestinian Film-team (read; Palestine TV-journalists who wanted to disgrace the Palestines all over the world). Bernd Dšrler is asking the woman:

-Did you know what you were celebrating?
-Yes, they were giving us Kanafe (an Arabish sweet, white cheese and honey)
-But the the explosions in America?
-No, we didn't know anything about those until days later...

(the Swedish liberal newspaper Dagens Nyheter, www.dn.se)

---

Cyn - aha! Like a blender. I've seen those, in Louisiana.

---

TODAY's QUESTION:
From what country came the man who invented the monkey-wrench?

Audi,

C

Deacon..
IÕm chatting lots but just keep missing you.
Hope the Family are allright & that the spouse is feeling better pass on our well messages to her.

I really didnÕt know ND sang GNA really honest..

Cyn you sound a lot better howÕs the head , say hi to the damn dog for me.

Ballah you ever come to UK & fucking close all airports myself.

NYBull you ever come .

MC water based or oil based paint ? your fav please.

Finally the very thing I came to the GB for in the first place..
Funny Funny people this mornings chat was bloody hilarious many many thanks to all who cheered me up for today

The joyÕs of being your own boss I have to fire somebody.

LindaÕs staying at her parents for most of the weekend so let the GB fest begin.

This morning I downloaded a timezone map of the world & am off into town to buy some little coloured pins would like to know where people live.
( I understand if you donÕt want to tell )

sausages@graphicsystems.co.uk

See you all later after the days deed is done

Duncan

Clas, it's not like you to not defend yourself, even though you consistently use the best defense is a good offense technique and attack others. We are all so proud at your restraint. Now if you could just retrain yourself from posting here that would be perfect. Love Louwenhaupt.

Floridavid: I heard a lot of Colin Powell in the speech tonight. They're playing good cop, bad cop with Powell and Rumsfeld well. The speech was measured and careful to separate rhetorically Islam from this cancer to mankind. The last 2 wars in Kosovo and the Gulf were overt, "show us your bombs" affairs against viscious dictators with shallow support. This enemy is smarter, more well-trained, used to hardship. Just as treating cancer in a patient is a difficult, diligent affair, this will be extraordinary difficult. Strangling the terrorist's cash flow, support from rogue governments, commando attacks. Our one advantage over the failed British and Soviet campaigns is that we do not have to, or should, take or occupy territory. Support for the Taliban government is not Universal in Afghanistan. They are 60% Pakistani (but not part of the Pakistani government - up to now a don't ask, don't tell policy) and do not control the northern half. bin Laden and the rest of the Hydra (rumors that a Physician in Egypt is the strategist) are a thron in the side of many. We must be extraordinary clever. Think of Frodo's approach in the Lord of the Rings. There will be overt operations, but indeed as stated in the speech, we won't see or know about most.

As far as blame, we all share. We just didn't see it coming. Did Ali see Frazier's left hook in the 15th over 30 years ago now? It's human nature. Our genes solidified 40,000 years ago are better suited for handling putting out fires, and preparing against known dangers or more accurately dangers we've tasted first-hand: winter, wolves, etc. We don't take to heart preventive medicine. Wait for angina, write a prescription, get out the roto-rooter. Obviously, time to get over that and most Americans have...

America's survival is threatened by a fundamentalist cult -- not the nutcases who sacrifice themselves flying planes into buildings, but another gang of fanatics who are bent on suicide and determined to take the rest of us with them.

Instead of quoting the Koran, they recycle Vietnam-era anti-war slogans.

Liberalism's collective wisdom on last week's horror consists of pacifism, obsessive whining about nonexistent threats to civil liberties, explaining the root causes of terrorism, blaming America first and blaming Israel second.

Pacifism -- Here's a comforting thought: The American Friends Service Committee vows to "educate about finding peaceful solutions in the face of these terrible acts of anger and hatred."

I'd love to hear their peaceful solution to Osama bin Laden's boys -- drop Woodstock videos over his Afghan bases, teach terrorists to sing old Joan Baez protest songs?

Civil liberties scare tactics -- People for the American Way warns against "pundits and political leaders" who suggest "the fight against terrorism requires us to sacrifice constitutional liberties."

Who are these would-be tyrants preparing to puree the Bill of Rights? No one in a leadership position has suggested curtailing anyone's legitimate privacy rights. Attorney General John Ashcroft's request for wiretap authority in cases of suspected terrorism is no threat to civil liberties.

Conspiracy theorists believe the FBI and CIA are automatically suspect, that any type of surveillance of political or religious fanatics presages the advent of a police state. In their paranoia, they would sacrifice innocence rather than let security agencies do their job.

Explaining root causes -- The Institute for Public Accuracy, a lefty group that pesters the media with its experts, offers the keen analysis of "Rabbi" Arthur Waskow (of the deconstructionist branch of Judaism). Waskow explains that the "rage" which begets terrorist acts "must be calmed" and "the pain behind them must be heard and addressed." Let the healing begin -- after the cruise missiles strike.

Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun Magazine and once Sen. Hillary Clinton's guru, says we need to ask, "What is it in the way we are living, organizing our societies and treating each other that makes violence seem so plausible to so many people?" It's all our fault.

Among the sources of angst Lerner identifies are "one out of every three people on this planet does not have enough food" and "globalization with its attendant inequalities of wealth." Like bin Laden, who comes from a super-rich Saudi family, ever went hungry. For the left, evil is invariably reduced to socio-economic conditions.

Blame America First -- Writing in The Nation, Robert Fisk finds the roots of the crisis in "U.S. missiles smashing into Palestinian homes." Lerner castigates Americans for not feeling "personally responsible when an American corporation runs a sweatshop in the Philippines or crushes efforts of workers to organize in Singapore." Yes, indeed. As the planes they hijacked slammed into the World Trade Center, the terrorists were chanting: "No more sweatshops. Take that, Kathy Lee Gifford!"

On the left, hatred of America is so ingrained that with thousands of Americans buried beneath tons of rubble, liberals' gut reaction is to censure our society for the alleged sins of multinationals and not having a foreign policy shaped by Ralph Nader.

Blame Israel Second -- Fisk tells us none of this would have happened if not for "the 34 years of Israel's brutal occupation of Arab land." How can a nation "occupy" its own territory? There has never been a sovereign state on the West Bank.

As Israel must be condemned, the Palestinians must be absolved. Fisk claims that Palestinian celebration of the New York death toll is "a symbol of their despair, as well as a sign of their political immaturity." No, it's a sign of the celebrants' utter depravity. Give these swine their own state, and, in no time at all, we'll have another Afghanistan on our hands.

A nation that will not fight back in the face of evil seals its fate. Those who twist logic to find excuses for terrorists or their supporters have lost a survival instinct. Liberalism, as it's mutated since the end of World War II, is a cult that preaches national suicide.

Ballah: I don't believe there is a Walmart in Hicksville,
but I could be wrong. :-)

Negs: Good luck on trying to get out of your place. I didn't know you wanted to move to Jersey.

MC: Are you in danger of getting Laid Off? I hope not.

Jim #: Norm Abrams a wimp? Say it ain't so! He is GOD in my house. (Sorry NYBill)

Lisa G: Wow, back with a vengence there girlfriend. What a post. I forgot that you and Daddy went to the WTC. Damn!

Night all....

LG,
this is for you:

Weather forecast for afghanistan: sunny in the morning followed by increasing mushroom clouds in the afternoon and temperatures of 2,000 degrees farenheit.

I guess a tax cut induced recession, pissing off all the allies and apologizing to the Chinese for their shooting down our plane weren't enough of a challenge for our selected pResident.

Now we get a never ending, moving target secret war and the slow erosion of our civil liberties to boot. I'm glad God is on our side. (I guess a Billion Moslems are sad to find out they arent't children of God too.)

Q; Who said "you can support the troops and not support the president"

Yep, Trent Lott in 1998.

BOY George is right

oh, nybilly.

i'm sorry i can't take credit for that anonymous jab in your direction. however, it looks as if i'm not the only one who questions your self-proclaimed godhood. i'm more likely to be obsessed with a cork figurine than fixated on you, but thanks for giving yourself that much credit.

now leave me be, nyQuill - i'm just a poor southern girl tryin to get off this here dirt farm...

Masterful and Moving Speach tonight on T.V. M'boy George was very Presidential.Here's a Guy who just needed a mission to rise to the occasion.

Dano- If you read this , please contact Chere. She will explain my circumstances.Thanks Buddy, and I hope you and the Family have a grat time in Mouselando. David

~,
Thanks So Much for your Parody of my disposal....HeeHee, HAHAH...LOLOLOL !!!!

Best laugh I've had in a long time....

SMOOTCH*

Sorry it's so freakin' long.

All right. I have to post this. Apologies to St. Al (and anyone who's not interested) for its incredible length. Apologies also to the likes of Blaise who would prefer Dan-related material on this forum. As far as I'm concerned, this is Dan-related in that response to issues at hand will affect the Dan and, in fact, just about everything that happens from here on in. But that can be said about any and everything. So there. (I can rationalize my way into any argument.) Anyway, without any further babbling on...

I received an e-mail containing these three articles. Feel free to comment on any of this as you see fit. It might make me feel better. Then again, it might make me feel worse. The first guy seems to have it in for two very popular countries. Also, I'm not so sure I would go voting "Gandhi for President" just yet, although he does make some good points. Hmmm...

From the e-mail:
"These are three texts that I recently received. Put together they are all rather long, but well worth reading. The first one is rather incendiary, but its basic message is sobering, especially for Americans. It was written by an Australian journalist and filmmaker, John Pilger (twice winner of the UN Media Peace Prize, Emmy Award-winner, and war correspondent for some of the world's most respected newspapers). The second is a creative alternative to bombing Afghanistan back into the stone age, and the third is a message from Mahatma Gandhi's grandson."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Inevitable Ring to the Unimaginable

By John PILGER
September 13, 2001

If the attacks on America have their source in the Islamic world, who can
really be surprised?

Two days earlier, eight people were killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes bombed civilian areas. To my knowledge, not a word appeared in the mainstream media in Britain.

An estimated 200,000 Iraqis, according to the Health Education Trust in London, died during and in the immediate aftermath of the slaughter known as the Gulf War. This was never news that touched public consciousness in the west.

At least a million civilians, half of them children, have since died in Iraq as a result of a medieval embargo imposed by the United States and Britain.

In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Mujadeen, which gave birth to the fanatical Taliban, was largely the creation of the CIA.

The terrorist training camps where Osama bin Laden, now "America's most wanted man", allegedly planned his attacks, were built with American money and backing.

In Palestine, the enduring illegal occupation by Israel would have collapsed long ago were it not for US backing.

Far from being the terrorists of the world, the Islamic peoples have been its victims - principally the victims of US fundamentalism, whose power, in all its forms, military, strategic and economic, is the greatest source of terrorism on earth.

This fact is censored from the Western media, whose "coverage" at best minimises the culpability
of imperial powers. Richard Falk, professor of international relations at Princeton, put it this way: "Western foreign policy is presented almost exclusively through a self-righteous, one-way legal/moral screen (with) positive images of Western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted political violence."

That Tony Blair, whose government sells lethal weapons to Israel and has sprayed Iraq and Yugoslavia with cluster bombs and depleted uranium and was the greatest arms supplier to the genocidists in Indonesia, can be taken seriously when he now speaks about the "shame" of the "new evil of mass terrorism" says much about the censorship of our collective sense of how the world is managed.

One of Blair's favourite words - "fatuous" - comes to mind. Alas, it is no comfort to the families of thousands of ordinary Americans who have died so terribly that the perpetrators of their suffering may be the product of Western policies. Did the American establishment believe that it could bankroll and manipulate events in the Middle East without cost to itself, or rather its own innocent people?

The attacks on Tuesday come at the end of a long history of betrayal of the Islamic and Arab peoples: the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and 34 years of Israel's brutal occupation of an Arab nation: all, it seems, obliterated within hours by Tuesday's acts of awesome cruelty by those who say they represent the victims of the West's intervention in their homelands.

"America, which has never known modern war, now has her own terrible league table: perhaps as many as 20,000 victims."

As Robert Fisk points out, in the Middle East, people will grieve the loss of innocent life, but they will ask if the newspapers and television networks of the west ever devoted a fraction of the present coverage to the half-a-million dead children of Iraq, and the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. The answer is no. There are deeper roots to the atrocities in the US, which made them almost inevitable.

It is not only the rage and grievance in the Middle East and south Asia. Since the end of the cold war, the US and its sidekicks, principally Britain, have exercised, flaunted, and abused their wealth and power while the divisions imposed on human beings by them and their agents have grown as never before.

An elite group of less than a billion people now take more than 80 per cent of the world's wealth.

In defence of this power and privilege, known by the euphemisms "free market" and "free trade", the injustices are legion: from the illegal blockade of Cuba, to the murderous arms trade, dominated by the US, to its trashing of basic environmental decencies, to the assault on fragile economies by institutions such as the World Trade Organisation that are little more than agents of the US Treasury and the European central banks, and the demands of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in forcing the poorest nations to repay unrepayable debts; to a new US "Vietnam" in Colombia and the sabotage of peace talks between North and South Korea (in order to shore up North Korea's "rogue nation" status).

Western terror is part of the recent history of imperialism, a word that journalists dare not speak or write.

The expulsion of the population of Diego Darcia in the 1960s by the Wilson government received almost no press coverage.

Their homeland is now an American nuclear arms dump and base from which US bombers patrol the Middle East.

In Indonesia, in 1965/6, a million people were killed with the complicity of the US and British
governments: the Americans supplying General Suharto with assassination lists, then ticking off names as people were killed.

"Getting British companies and the World Bank back in there was part of the deal", says Roland Challis, who was the BBC's south east Asia correspondent.

British behaviour in Malaysia was no different from the American record in Vietnam, for which it proved inspirational: the withholding of food, villages turned into concentration camps and more than half a million people forcibly dispossessed.

In Vietnam, the dispossession, maiming and poisoning of an entire nation was apocalyptic, yet diminished in our memory by Hollywood movies and by what Edward Said rightly calls cultural imperialism.

In Operation Phoenix, in Vietnam, the CIA arranged the homicide of around 50,000 people. As official documents now reveal, this was the model for the terror in Chile that climaxed with the murder of the democratically elected leader Salvador Allende, and within 10 years, the crushing of Nicaragua.

All of it was lawless. The list is too long for this piece.

Now imperialism is being rehabilitated. American forces currently operate with impunity from bases in 50 countries.

"Full spectrum dominance" is Washington's clearly stated aim.

Read the documents of the US Space Command, which leaves us in no doubt.

In this country, the eager Blair government has embarked on four violent adventures, in pursuit of "British interests" (dressed up as "peacekeeping"), and which have little or no basis in international law: a record matched by no other British government for half a century.

What has this to do with this week's atrocities in America? If you travel among the impoverished majority of humanity, you understand that it has everything to do with it.

People are neither still, nor stupid. They see their independence compromised, their resources and land and the lives of their children taken away, and their accusing fingers increasingly point north: to the great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably, terror breeds terror and more fanaticism.

But how patient the oppressed have been. It is only a few years ago that the Islamic fundamentalist groups, willing to blow themselves up in Israel and New York, were formed, and only after Israel and the US had rejected outright the hope of a Palestinian state, and justice for a people scarred by imperialism.

Their distant voices of rage are now heard; the daily horrors in faraway brutalised places have at last come home.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Subject: Bomb them with butter, bribe them with hope.

A military response, particularly an attack on Afghanistan, is exactly what the terrorists want. It will strengthen and swell their small but fanatical ranks.

Instead, bomb Afghanistan with butter, with rice, bread, clothing and medicine. It will cost less than conventional arms, poses no threat of US casualties and just might get the populace thinking that maybe the Taliban don't have the answers. After three years of drought and with starvation looming, let's offer the Afghani people the vision of a new future. One that includes full stomachs.

Bomb them with information. Video players and cassettes of world leaders, particularly Islamic leaders, condemning terrorism. Carpet the country with magazines and newspapers showing the horror of terrorism committed by their "guest". Blitz them with laptop computers and DVD players filled with a perspective that is denied them by their government. Saturation bombing with hope will mean that some of it gets through. Send so much that the Taliban can't collect and hide it all.

The Taliban are telling their people to prepare for Jihad. Instead, let's give the Afghani people their first good meal in years. Seeing your family fully fed and the prospect of stability in terms of food and a future is a powerful deterrent to martyrdom. All we ask in return is that they, as a people, agree to enter the civilized world. That includes handing over terrorists in their midst.

In responding to terrorism we need to do something different. Something unexpected..something that addresses the root of the problem. We need to take away the well of despair, ignorance and brutality from which the Osama bin Laden's of the world water their gardens of terror.

*(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((*

Please pass this along.

It is important that we learn to think in NEW ways. If we continue attacking in the old ways we will get the same old results. Look at what has been happening in the middle east for thousands of years to see what
we can expect if we attack with bombs and military force.

Do we want to live a life of fear as people in the middle east do?

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"When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. There have been murderers and tyrants, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of this always."
--- Mahatma Gandhi

TERRORISM AND NONVIOLENCE

By Arun Gandhi

Understandably, after the tragedy in New York and Washington DC on September 11 many have written or called the office to find out what would be an appropriate nonviolent response to such an unbelievably inhuman act of violence.

First we must understand that nonviolence is not a strategy that we can use in a moment of crisis and discarded in times of peace. Nonviolence is about personal attitudes, about becoming the change we wish to see in the world. Because, a nation's collective attitude is based on the attitude of the individual. Nonviolence is about building positive relationships with all human beings - relationships that are based on love, compassion, respect, understanding and appreciation.

Nonviolence is also about not judging people as we perceive them to be - that is, a murderer is not born a murderer; a terrorist is not born a terrorist. People become murderers, robbers and terrorists because of circumstances and experiences in life.
Killing or confining murders, robbers, terrorists, or the like is not going to rid this world of them. For everyone we kill or confine we create another hundred to take their place. What we need to do is to analyze dispassionately what are those circumstances that create such monsters and how can we help eliminate those circumstances, not the monsters. Justice should mean reformation and not revenge.

We saw some people in Iraq and Palestine and I dare say many other countries rejoice the blowing up of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. It horrified us, as it should. But, let us not forget that we do the same thing. When Israel bombs the Palestinians we either rejoice or show no compassion. Our attitude is they deserve what they get. When the Palestinians bomb the Israelis we are indignant and condemn them as vermin who need to be eliminated. We reacted without compassion when we bombed the cities of Iraq. I was among the millions in the United States who sat glued to the television and watched the drama as though it was made for a television film. The television had desensitized us. Thousands of innocent men, women and children were being blown to bits and instead of feeling sorry for them we marveled at the efficiency of our military. For more than ten years we have continued to wreak havoc in Iraq - an estimated 50,000 children die every year because of sanctions that we have imposed - and it hasn't moved us to compassion.

All this is done, we are told, because we want to get rid of the Satan called Sadam Hussein. Now we are getting ready to do this all over again to get rid of another Satan called Osama Bin Laden. We will bomb the cities of Afghanistan because they harbor the Satan and in the process we will help create a thousand other Bin Ladens.

Some might say we don't care what the world thinks of us as long as they respect our strength. After all we have the means to blow this world to pieces since we are the only surviving super-power. Do we want the world to respect us the way school children respect a bully?

Is that our role in the world? If a bully is what we want to be then we must be prepared to face the same consequences as a school-yard bully faces. On the other hand we cannot tell the world "leave us alone." Isolationism is not what this world is built for.

All of this brings us back to the question: How do we respond nonviolently to terrorism?

The consequences of a military response are not very rosy. Many thousands of innocent people will die both here and the country or countries we attack. Militancy will increase exponentially and, ultimately, we will be faced with another, more pertinent, moral question: What will we gain by destroying half the world? Will we be able to live with a clear conscience?

We must acknowledge our role in helping create monsters in the world and then find ways to contain these monsters without hurting more innocent people and then redefine our role in the world. I think we must move from seeking to be respected for our military strength to being respected for our moral strength.

We need to appreciate that we are in a position to play a powerful role in helping the other half of the world attain a better standard of life not by throwing a few crumbs but by significantly involving ourselves in constructive economic programs.

For too long our foreign policy has been based on what is good for the United States. It smacks of selfishness. Our foreign policy should now be based on what is good for the world and how can we do the right thing to help the world become more peaceful.

To those who have lost loved one's in this and other terrorist acts I say I share your grief. I am sorry that you have become victims of senseless violence. But let this sad episode not make you vengeful because no amount of violence and killing is going to bring you inner peace. Anger and hate never do. The memory of those victims who have died in this and other violent incidents around the world will be better preserved and meaningfully commemorated if we all learn to forgive and dedicate our lives to helping create a peaceful, respectful and an understanding world.

--- Arun Gandhi

Founder Director
M.K.Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence
650 East Parkway South
Memphis TN 38104
Tel:(901)452-2824; FAX: (901)452-2775
email: gandhi@cbu.edu
web: www.gandhiinstitute.org

No, I aint Ballah, I aint Mean Old Daddy, I certainly aint
NYBoil, but I am the God of the last Anon poster...Neg you
really must try to lose this fixation with me....

Howard-I know, I know. Angel's been on my case about not having the "Making of Aja," as well. I'm pathetic.

NMN-Yo. Respond away when you get the chance, soul brotha. Just had a thought--Isn't it freakin' ironic? Remember the last time we saw you? Remember WHERE me and the G had just come from? Who wants to guess? And we complained about the wait, too. Hell, I would wait a whole day if I could only do that again.

Hmmmm, ballah. Won't that put you in close proximity to NYBoil? Or are YOU in fact the man himself? Now that would be rich- the biggest identified jerk on the board is the biggest anon jerk. Stands to reason, I guess.

Who will win the $500,000.00 on Big Brother 2 tonight?????

This is a right wing nut who thinks there is no such thing as racism in the US. He writes for the same rag as Horowitz. Nice try. Now back at ya;

Feds Looked Into G.W. Bush-Bin Laden Connection In '92. Part One

Bush Said Friend's Arbusto Investment Was His Own, Not Saudi Money. Friend "Declined To Comment For The Record." Part Two
Houston Chronicle. June 4, 1992. "Federal authorities are investigating the activities of a Houston businessman -- a past investor in companies controlled by a son of President Bush -- who has been accused of illegally representing Saudi interests in the United States.

The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network -- known as FinCEN -- and the FBI are reviewing accusations that entrepreneur James R. Bath guided money to Houston from Saudi investors who wanted to influence U.S. policy under the Reagan and Bush administrations, sources close to the investigations say. FinCEN, a division of the U.S. Department of Treasury, investigates money laundering. Special agents and analysts from various law enforcement agencies, including the Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. Customs Service, are assigned to work with the FinCEN staff.

"The federal review stems in part from court documents obtained through litigation by Bill White, a former real estate business associate of Bath . White contends the documents indicate that the Saudis were using Bath and their huge financial resources to influence U.S. policy. Such representation by Bath would require that he be registered as a foreign agent with the U.S. Department of Justice. In general, people required by law to be registered are those who represent a foreign entity seeking to influence governmental action or policy. An Annapolis graduate and former Navy fighter pilot, White, 46, claims that Bath and the judicial system, under the veil of national security, have blackballed him professionally and financially because he has refused to keep quiet about what he regards as a conspiracy to secretly funnel Saudi dollars to the United States. White became entangled in a series of lawsuits and countersuits with Bath , who for some six years has prevailed in the courts. White says the legal action has financially devasted him and Venturcorp Inc., the real estate development company in which he and Bath were partners.

"In sworn depositions, Bath said he represented four prominent Saudis as a trustee [one of whom was Saudi Sheik Salem M. Binladen] and that he would use his name on their investments. In return, he said, he would receive a 5 percent interest in their deals. Tax documents and personal financial records show that Bath personally had a 5 percent interest in Arbusto '79 Ltd., and Arbusto '80 Ltd., limited partnerships controlled by George W. Bush, President Bush's eldest son. Arbusto means bush in Spanish. Bath invested $50,000 in the limited partnerships, according to the documents. There is no available evidence to show whether the money came from Saudi interests. (To be concluded tomorrow.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"George W. Bush's company, Bush Exploration Co., general partner in the limited partnerships, went through several mergers, eventually evolving into Harken Energy Corp., a suburban Dallas-based company. Bush, known informally as George Jr., is a shareholder and director of Harken, which has been granted lucrative offshore drilling rights off the coast of Bahrain in the Persian Gulf. One of the top shareholders of Harken, a public company, is Saudi businessman Abdullah Taha Bakhsh. Bush said that to his knowledge, Bath 's investment was from personal funds, and no Saudi money was invested in Arbusto . Bath , 55, a former U.S. Air Force pilot, declined to comment for the record. Spokesmen for FinCEN and the FBI also declined to comment."
According to a 1976 trust agreement, drawn shortly after Bush was appointed director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Saudi Sheik Salem M. Binladen appointed Bath as his business representative in Houston. Binladen, along with his brothers, owns Binladen Brothers Construction, one of the largest construction companies in the Middle East. According to White, Bath told him that he had assisted the CIA in a liaison role with Saudi Arabia since 1976. Bath has previously denied having worked for the CIA. In a sworn deposition, Bath said he was the sole director of Skyway Aircraft Leasing Ltd., a company that a court document shows is owned by Khaled bin Mahfouz. Bin Mahfouz had been a major shareholder in the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, a banking empire that has been accused of money laundering and of using Mideast oil money to seek ties to political leaders in several countries. Mahfouz and his family own the National Commercial Bank of Saudi Arabia. In 1990, Bath bought the Express Auto Park garage at Hobby Airport for $8.4 million, which included a $1.4 million loan provided by Mahfouz, according to transaction documents. Bath received a 5 percent interest in the companies that own and operate Houston Gulf Airport after purchasing it on behalf of Binladen in 1977. After Binladen died in 1988, his interests in the airport were taken over by Mahfouz, according to court documents. --Jerry Urban, 6/4/92

for the rest of the story see; http://www.bushnews.com/attack.htm

Duncan,
You ever coming back to"chat"?Not that I miss you or anything.

Is Bill Clinton Responsible for September 11?

by John Perazzo

IN ORDER THAT the daunting task of eradicating terrorism from the earth might at last begin in earnest, most Americans justifiably support our nation?s impending military response to the horrors of September 11. I have watched, with tearful awe, my fellow countrymen eagerly rush to help the stricken in every conceivable way. But in a larger sense, we have all been stricken -- by devils brave enough to willingly lose their lives in fiery conflagration, but too craven to identify themselves.

Thus we must clearly direct our vision toward the future, toward the task of together finding a way to root out and destroy the amorphous, unfamiliar foe we face. That being said, however, we ought also take a moment to cast a backward glance toward the policies of recent years that made our country vulnerable not only to tragedies like the World Trade Center and Pentagon disasters, but to even greater potential calamities. Failure to understand what led us to this point will doom us to sufferings yet more unspeakable.

I refer specifically to the policies of Bill Clinton, the president whose endless parade of lies on matters far graver than his sexual dalliances literally set the stage for potential national disaster. This analysis of his failings is not intended to deflect responsibility away from the loathsome individuals who planned and executed last Tuesday?s deeds, but rather to alert readers to the fact that the seeds of those terrorists? evil intentions were left utterly undisturbed by a president who spent eight years turning a blind eye to even the most blatant national security threats.

You might recall how throughout the Lewinsky ordeal, Mr. Clinton repeatedly intoned the mantra that he was committed to doing "the people?s work" ? a commitment that purportedly left him no time to comment upon such trivialities as the perjury that he had both committed and suborned. Apparently, however, the "people?s work" did not entail protecting our nation?s safety. As David Horowitz has pointed out, the Clinton Administration actually gave away the very technology that allowed the terrorists to encrypt their communications and thereby go undetected. Moreover, the "sensitivity" guidelines Clinton instituted in 1995 have greatly hindered vital U.S. intelligence-gathering capabilities in foreign countries.

But Clinton?s unforgivable neglect of national security matters extended far beyond the realm of last week?s suicide hijackings and the lapses that allowed them to happen. Consider former Defense Secretary William Cohen?s 1997 observation that Iraq already may have "produced as much as 200 tons of VX [nerve gas], theoretically enough to kill every man, woman, and child on the face of the earth." Notwithstanding this alarming possibility, Clinton assented to a U.N.-brokered deal that greatly restricted U.N. inspectors' access to Iraq?s "sensitive presidential locations" suspected of housing nuclear and biological weapons-production plants.

In addition, he intervened numerous times to dissuade inspectors from making surprise visits to still other suspected weapons sites ? simply to avoid an embarrassing public standoff with Saddam Hussein. By 1998 Scott Ritter, the longest serving American weapons-inspector in Iraq, angrily resigned in protest to what he called Clinton?s "surrender to Iraqi leadership." Ritter candidly explained that the Clinton Administration had "made a farce" of U.N. inspection efforts by reining in investigators who were literally "on the doorstep" of uncovering Iraq's hidden weapons programs. In short, our president placed his preoccupation with his own public image above the safety of the entire world, and was content to saddle future administrations with the disastrous outgrowths of his own self-absorbed gutlessness.

Recognizing that well-told fairy tales punctuated by sunny smiles are good for presidential poll ratings, Clinton frequently boasted of having improved U.S. relations with North Korea, whose military had already amassed enough plutonium to build nuclear weapons as early as 1994. When Korean leaders denied outside inspectors access to suspected weapons-production sites, Clinton happily negotiated a plan giving them fully ten years to dismantle their weapons program. In so doing, he once again shifted to subsequent administrations the burden of eventually dealing with the potentially dreadful consequences of a Korean buildup.

Moreover, Clinton withheld from the public any mention of the 1997 U.S. intelligence satellite photographs showing some 15,000 North Korean workers building an immense underground nuclear facility in an area called Kumchangni. That construction project, of course, exposed the nuclear weapons freeze to which North Korea had pledged, and which Clinton had hailed as a major arms control achievement, as nothing more